The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: Pete69 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:53 am

First off let me say I am sincerely sorry you and your family are suffering. I have been there and worse.

But WTF. you have got to be kidding. The system is not broken, It's working exactly as It's been set up to work, and will never be otherwise as long as the people of this country keep demonstrating the same mindset as you are portraying in this rant.

Put aside for a moment how terribly screwed up and corrupt the system is, because we will not fix it with our hands out, asking for the government to take care of us in exchange for all of our freedoms.

It was no fault of your own that you lied about your income? And took on a mortgage that you wouldn't be able to pay if you as a young couple decided to have children and keep mom at home looking after the kids instead of working full time.

Now you want unemployment for someone who is unable or unwilling to go back to work full time. I'm sorry but that is the stipulation in most states, that the unemployment recipient is able, ready, and willing to go back to work if the opportunity is there.

And now were mad because the handouts went to someone or something else!!!

All these choices we make, good or bad, are choices I'm glad we still have the freedom to make.

Keeping your hand out, while giving not only yours, but also my freedoms away, and now I'm ANGRY!!!!
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: Pete69 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:19 am

After brewing for a while, I have realized that maybe the system is broken, if you think the new "American dream" is standing in line waiting for your handout, and you haven't gotten yours yet.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: Pete69 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:37 am

lsayre wrote:You certainly have every right to be angry. The money fabricated out of thin air (though apparently to be eventually owed back to someone for some reason by this and many future generations) to bail out the big NY banks, GM, AIG, etc... and also bail out many of the the foreign banks and corporations to boot would have easily been sufficient to pay off every home mortgage with a balance across the entire USA. Can you imagine the amount of stimulus that would have given the nation, when people were free from their mortgages and could spend that money on the sort of things that would put everyone back to work again big time. But instead the to big to fails got cushy bailouts and massive raises, perks, and bonuses (instead of trips before a jury and then hopefully off to jail).

Your situation reminds me of why my basement and garage are full of my oldest daughters stuff right now. My heart goes out to you and yours, and I have said a prayer for you and your family.


For someone who clams to understand how it all works, you sure missed the boat. The money fabricated out of thin air isn't owed back to anyone from this or future generations. It was stolen from anyone who has any savings in monetary funds by the biggest scam ever perpetrated on the American public. It's called INFLATION or redistribution.

Now that's a good idea, lets use the money they stole from me for the better good, and give it to all those who made a bad choice and took out a mortgage that they couldn't afford!!! Yes I see how that would stimulate someone else s pocket. And if I'm lucky they would use my money to purchase something from the company I work for, And with the paycheck that I get, that is now worth less, I could keep the stimulus rolling.

Just to keep things straight, The next biggest scam is what we do supposedly owe back. The portion of phantom money the government borrowed plus interest on the phantom money they pulled out of their ass and lent to the government because our heavy taxes didn't cover all their expenses. It's called the national debt. and a triple whammy. Then comes fractional reserve banking on the rest of the circulated funds and more interest paid on borrowed money that was stolen from you in the first place. So you see it wasn't created out of thin air, it was pulled out of your ass.
Last edited by Pete69 on Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:54 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: Pete69 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:14 am

Now if you'll excuse me I have to wake up early to make it down to the welfare office before the big crowd arrives, because I agree, It's "every man for himself".
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: cabinover On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:40 am

I too feel for your family and hope you come out pretty much unscathed.

Having said that we were also told by bankers way back when I was making <$30K that we could afford a $90K home. HUH? COOL!!!! Wait a minute...something doesn't seem right.

Then I sat down and did some figuring like my dad taught me and realized I'd need another job just to eat, not to mention taxes, newer car, upcoming child care (we had no idea that would be so expensive either), and the list just goes on and on.
He was rather smart like that and luckily some it what he told me stuck, not much but some. :D

We ended up with a $75K mortgage, have done a ton of work ourselves which isn't calculated into said mortgage with cash here, cash there.

Between my wife and I we bring in around $70K both working full time pretty much. We don't have a lot in the bank and our retirement at age 43 is only around $15K. If we'd have taken that "30% of your income for housing" that the bank assured us was normal, I know we'd be living check to check again.

Not trying to bash you but I too don't understand you being pissed at the system. Someone besides the loan agent had to sign the papers.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:58 am

Hopefully you'll come out of this without too much damage but a whole lot smarter for it. Way back when I had my R.E. license we would probably turn down as many people as ones that I would show homes to. Had a habit of not wasting my time showing a home to someone that I knew couldn't afford it. Somewhere along the line that all changed & many people like yourselves got caught up in it, there is a lot of blame & shame to be spread around. Myself & many others lost their jobs during the 80s recession & I was totally thankful that I was always taught to buy within my means. These slick talking salespeople have no shame & thats why I've always made it a point to know what I could afford before I even started to look for or at anything, seen it way too many times. Not saying anyone in particular but IMO we as Americans decades ago started buying on impulse rather than need & it was all made too easy with plastic. Hopefully this recession will teach each & every one of us a bit of a lesson.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:01 am

Pete69,

It would appear to me that perhaps you actually don't fully understand how this system was designed during the housing boom. So, lemme try and explain it. I'll start with the unemployment thing, which incidentally is a separate issue not tied to the mortgage; its just a compounded issue.

My wife worked full-time prior to and directly after my daughter was born. I work full-time and have been for 11 years. My wife's father while sick was watching our daughter so my wife could work full-time. He did it as long as he could until he could no longer rise from bed until he died. So, we were left with a difficult choice; hence the "roll a hard six". On one hand if we paid for childcare she'd still be able to work full time and have a stranger raise our child. But we took into account the price of admission to day care. Say, working full-time that was an extra $600. But, daycare was also $600. So, we'd still be out that $600 and we'd miss watching our daughter growing up. So, guess what choice was made? We think it was the correct choice. I mean I grew up with both parents home from work before I was home from school, so did my wife. I don't see anything wrong with wanting to raise my own children. Perhaps to an old grouch like you, not so much. Now my wife with her employer sat down and discussed "change of availability" it was a formal meeting with corporate with several meetings. It was decided that she was going to be available for 20 hours. On the form from corporate it showed her new hours. Just below each new hour for each day is a little check box, "Approved" "Not Approved". All the "Approved" boxes were checked. My wife signed it, as did her employer. That, is what is called a "promise" to work, her employer promised her 20 hours. Now, fast forward. One week she is at 20. The next, 9, the following week 18, the week after that 20, this week in fact she is at 10. So, if she was promised 20 but is only getting 10, who is not keeping their end of the deal? Not my wife. Her employer. So, she goes in to fight it. Her employer says, "If you want the time owed to you go stand in the unemployment line and claim partial unemployment for the time." My wife does. And is told "NO!" We're not standing in the welfare line looking for a handout as you suggest. We're trying to make a living and support our family. My wife is owed time she was not given. She wants her money. Nothing wrong with that is there? Perhaps to you, there is? But according to you, we're not entitled to owning a home and raising a family. It's one or the other right? We want a home so we're not allowed to have a child. We want a child so we're not allowed to own a home. I'm sorry, I was not dealt the same hand as you were when you became of age to own a home. You may have grown up during the great depression whom I might add there were people standing in line then looking for help. But you were presented with every opportunity to own a home and raise a family. But being since I've grown up through the 70's and watched the, "Me Too" generation *censored* up the government I've been dealt a poor hand. You really want to place blame? I blame baby boomers for *censored* everything up for people of my generation.

Now, on to the housing situation. Our situation is not an isolated incident. Maybe, I don't know, you haven't been paying attention. Maybe you don't have a TV or at the very least a radio to hear about it. Or MAYBE your just ignorant on the entire situation with the government. I don't know. I don't claim to understand all the details. But, what is happening to myself, my sister is also happening to thousands if not millions of people in this country. Perhaps, after the war of 1812 when you were given your tract of land by the administration of that time you didn't have to deal with banks and mortgages, you just built your home and that was that. I'm also assuming you are that old and that you don't currently have a mortgage. See how generalizations work? But, I do know a little about the situation as it stands today because I'm living it. Are you? Didn't think so. Lemme clear something up, I'm not on the mortgage for my house. My wife bought the house. It's hers. Now, she didn't wake up the day of the final on the house and say to herself, "I'm gonna totally lie about my income to get this house." No. The market was setup like this to some degree.

So, here is how it work to my understanding. A prospective new home buyer goes into a realtor's office and asks to see several houses. They go out, and after some time the prospective new home buyer says, "You know, I think I'd like to buy this house." Then the realtor, home buyer and bank all sit down and begin working out the details of the mortgage. When the question of income comes up this is how it happened with my wife, "How much do you make?" The naive home buyer who is 20-30 says to the bank, "I make (and I'm just throwing a number out there) $25k a year." then the bank replies, "Hrmmm...well, you need to make $45k a year to buy this house (again, I just threw a number out)." and the naive home buyer replies, "Oh. Ok, well I'll keep looking then." and the bank then says, "Well now wait a minute. We'll just say you make $50K and you can buy the house."

But it just doesn't end there. See, the mortgage you were issued is whats known as a "balloon" mortgage. When the market is doing well the mortgage is low, at one point after my wife bought the house her mortgage was a little over $900 a month (not to mention she has two mortgages and not one). But as the market fluctuates as does the mortgage. It goes up, and down and up and down. But wait, the market crashed. So, where do you think the mortgage is? High. We're currently playing close to $2000 a month that is based off of a false income determined by the bank. Between my wife and I we aren't even bringing $40k home a year. At one time when the market was good we were bringing in $75k then as the market started to fall we were bringing in $65k and at that point we began to struggle. But with all of the "life" changing events we've experienced our bank account is constantly in the red. My wife did not "actively" lie to to the mortgage company when purchasing the house. And to think that she did is absolutely ignorant as to how dire the situation is in this country. Pete, you're honestly going to sit there and tell me that you are not pissed off that you bailed out more companies with your tax dollars? You sir, are a liar. Again, I'll say that YOU along with my wife and I along with every other American in this country helped TARP, Bailout and Golden Parachute a whole slew of companies when the system failed. But yet, you aren't pissed about that? Again, liar.

Has the government actually given a reason as to why they need to raise their debt ceiling? Not to my knowledge. But I can almost guarantee you it has something to do with how they used our money to bail out dozens of companies and banks and spent trillions of dollars on god knows what.

You can sit here and say that I caused this myself. But try telling that to the thousands/millions of people who are in the same exact position as my family and my sister's family are. Because its just not true.
Last edited by I'm On Fire on Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:28 am

You know what, maybe some of the blame does need to be placed on my wife and I. But at the time my wife purchased the house, she didn't know. No one told her. Unfortunately for her and I neither of us had "great" teachings when it came to money. Her parents struggled to make ends meet up until both of them passed away and my parents struggled. She had no one at her side saying, "You're gonna fail."

But you know what, we're trying and have tried to fix it. Make it right. By ourselves. We can't. Maybe we should just let the bank take it. I mean, several of you seem to think that we should just take it. Pete69 I'm looking at you. Maybe we should just become homeless. I mean, after all neither of us knew what we got ourselves into right? Its our fault right?

I mean, neither of us have ever stood in a food line, looked for WIC checks. We've worked all our lives to get to this point. Hell we helped bail out AIG, BOA, Chrysler, GM and countless others. But when we need some help, we're told, "It's your fault. Stop trying to milk the system." Such a double standard. Where was blame when AIG was getting golden parachutes? Those guys squandered their earnings on whores and trips. I'm scraping a living together trying to keep a house that we were told, "Its ok" by some banker and a lawyer. But I'm not, thousands/millions of others aren't entitled to the same TARP, bailout, golden parachute that the large corporations are? Why the double standard?

I have every right to be pissed that the system I VOTED for isn't helping me keep my home. I'm pissed that the system I voted for is helping big business.

No, the American Dream Pete69, isn't looking for a handout. It's being given an opportunity to survive and enjoy a prosperous life. I work, pay my taxes, my bills when I'm given a chance. But I guess its the American way to be raped.

Sure, my wife should have never bought the house, I've said that. I've admitted that. She's admitted that. *censored*, we've both cried ourselves to sleep at night because we've gotten ourselves in this situation. No one told us. And obviously, we're not smart enough to have known. But we've tried to fix it, make it work. We can't and we need some help. I guess its the American way to just crash and burn if you aren't big business. *censored* it.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:32 am

cabinover wrote:Someone besides the loan agent had to sign the papers.



You're right, it was my wife. But on the direction of the loan agent who said, "We'll just put that you make this much."

But whatever.........

As of now (2011) there are 1,632,783 homes in foreclosure in the United States. 2009 saw 2.8 million and 2010 was just over 3 million. In NJ alone there are 61,525 homes in foreclosure (2011). So, according to some here that is the fault of the home owner and poor planning or was there something else behind it? So, you mean to tell me that almost 2 million people just decided to out of the blue, "lie" about their income decide to quit their jobs, go stand in a line somewhere and beg for "their" handout?

I don't think so.
Last edited by I'm On Fire on Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:21 am

IOF, I'm in the same boat, or was anyway, as you.

My wife quit her job when my second son was born because child care equaled her net pay. I had a solid job with good benefits so it made sense.

We too bought in the height of the housing boom. I can't tell you how many times we lost homes to people bidding $5 to $10k OVER asking price.

We finally after a year got into a house and spent more than we should, but there just wasn't anything else out there at the time.

Then the market flipped, everything started getting more expensive(food, fuel, taxes, etc) and I wasn't getting raises 4 years running. Next thing I know, my job is in Mexico, and I'm SOL.

I understand what Pete is saying, I'd prefer the government wasn't the safety net, but I'm not going to let my family starve for my principles but we live in reality.

There are systems set up to help out when you are down. You and I both know you have no intention staying on the dole forever. Use it for what it's there for. I for one don't mind my tax dollars going to help when help is sorely needed. And unemployment is fully funded by the employer so it's not even taxpayer money technically.

Do what you need to do, restructure your life as needed and then move ahead.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:31 am

jpete,

My comments weren't directed at you. You seem to know what I'm going through. It was the comments of Pete69 that kind of annoy me. His comments seem slightly ignorant.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:25 pm

I know who you were talking to and and why. ;)

My current position puts me about midway between you and Pete so I can see both sides.

It would be really nice if government wasn't doing EVERYTHING it does, but that's not the world we live in.

You've got a family to provide for and that governmental system is there to assist you. I had personal moral conflicts about accessing it myself but finally decided that you truly "can't fight city hall" so I use it for what I can get, with the full intent to move beyond it.

I'm sure you feel the same way. I can't think of many people that object to that. It's the people that make government assistance a career that put the bad taste in everyone's mouth.

Don't feel bad about doing what you need to do. One thing I have learned about government systems is they seem designed to weed out those who don't really "want" it. There are hoops you have to jump through seemingly just to jump through them. It's a dog and pony show. Any YOU'RE the dog. :D

If you get no results at the wage slaves on the front line, go over, under, around, or through them.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:38 pm

I'm On Fire wrote:

It would appear to me that perhaps you actually don't fully understand how this system was designed during the housing boom. So, lemme try and explain it. I'll start with the unemployment thing, which incidentally is a separate issue not tied to the mortgage; its just a compounded issue...You can sit here and say that I caused this myself. But try telling that to the thousands/millions of people who are in the same exact position as my family and my sister's family are. Because its just not true.


I think it's pretty clear that Pete does fully understand how the system works. Just the fact that you are in the mess you are in is evidence that you don't have a clue. Your rant confirms it.

Unfortunately, whether you are talking to one or the "thousands/millions" of people who are in the same position as your family it's still a fact that you signed the papers. You knew you had plans for your wife to stay home with the kids - cutting your income in half - yet you signed the papers. Yes, the government offered you a package you couldn't refuse yet "thousands/millions" of people did refuse. Many of us saw that the numbers didn't add up and stepped back and said NO. That's a fact; no one was holding a gun to your head and now you are looking for someone else to bail you out. I'm sorry, I'm against government bailouts whether it's Wall Street or Main Street. It's a redistribution of wealth program and while I'm sorry that you are learning the hard way, I'm not willing to pay for your mistakes. I make plenty of mistakes myself and I don't ask for anyone to bail me out. I reevaluate, regroup and overcome. That's not to say I'd not hold out a helping hand but I'm not going to bail you out.

The first thing I'd do is move my family to a rental as soon as I could. Then I'd go ahead with the bankruptcy, short sale or whatever would get me out from under the house. Just curious, has your wife looked at any home based businesses? When I decided to cut our income in half so I could stay home wit the kids, I started a home based day care. It replaced my income and we at least broke even. Yes, it was a pain but you do what you have to do. At different times while my kids were younger I had multiple newspaper routes, again a pain in the butt but I was bringing in money. I also did the legwork for a local pool company to get the permits they needed from the county. There are companies that do inventories at night that might work out for you'll. The bottom line is that there are things you can do to make your situation better. Many school districts allow drivers to carry their own children on the buses with them; saving them the cost of day care. Those jobs pay well because you have to get a CDL. Most school districts will pay for getting that.

You kind of remind me of "poor Uncle Bill." Poor uncle Bill has been blaming everyone and everything for his misfortune since his dad was murdered when he was 4. Poor Uncle Bill never got to go to college because he didn't have the money since his dad was killed; never mind he didn't have the grades from high school. Poor Uncle Bill made bad decisions his entire life since his dad wasn't there to help him and show him the way. Poor Uncle Bill never accepted the consequences of his own actions so he will always be poor Uncle Bill.

I think you can see where this is going. Things are tough right now for everyone, you are no exception. The question is how long are you going to sit there blaming everyone but you. Lisa
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: Pete69 On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:40 pm

My comments seem ignorant? You are the one that clearly doesn't understand. You and your wife rolled the hard six and decided to cut her hours to take care of your children. Excellent!! I applaud you for that, sincerely It's the only thing you say that makes sense. But it was your choice, not your employers, they still had work for her, she wasn't laid off. Working a part time employee into the mix doesn't always work out to 20 hours. You're lucky they even agreed to keep her on at all. Be thankful for that and loose the everyone owes me attitude. No employer owes you or me a job.

And no, no one in this country is entitled to own a home, just the opportunity to work for, and strive for a home of your own, and the right to own it once you achieve that level of success. And yes the system is stacked against you, to keep you a economic slave. And you have fallen right in line. The kind of people who think who think they have the right to everything, inevitably end up with nothing, or all stolen goods.

And yes I do say you brought this on yourself, along with the thousands/millions of other brain-dead selfish American public, starting with the baby boomers who all sold us out, because they thought they put their dues in, and now its time to collect.

And further more, you said it, it's the system you voted for, NOT ME!!!! And that is why I'm ANGRY!!!

And no, I would not like to see you and your family out on the street. Cutting your losses, is something people who make bad decisions do. Renting is something more people than not, did, before the entitlement mentality became so prevalent.

I was previously being a little sarcastic, but if you loose your job too, loose your house, can't afford to rent a place, I will not begrudge you swallowing your pride, doing what you have to do to take care of your family and standing in line at the welfare office till you get back on your feet. I see no shame in that.

The shame is in all the welfare recipients who are not truly in need. Starting first with all the government workers voting themselves raises, paying there dues to their big unions so they will fight for them to keep their welfare checks coming. And ending with you, who is ready to stand in line right behind them if the opportunity presents itself.

Just like the Boomers who started the trend of selling us down the river for a few extra bucks they didn't really need.

Now when we, as a people, stop all this nonsense, we can start complaining about being raped by the banks. Because we are the ones who give them the power to do so.

I wish you all the best, and good luck with your situation. I offer a toast that you will someday clear the fog from your eyes and see the light of truth.
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Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lsayre On: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:31 pm

Lisa and Pete, I could agree fully with your position if we had both an honest money system and honest banks and if money was real, but with fractional reserve banking and fabricated money the entire monetary system is designed to create a certain number of failures (bankruptcy and foreclosures) as an inherent requirement. This is due to the fact that all fiat money is brought into existence as debt. Either as a debt obligation for the Treasury Department to pay back the Federal Reserve with interest for the permission to print (or keystroke) into existence new money (via the TBills the Treasury Dept. gives to the Fed in return for Federal Reserve Notes (what we think is money), or as a debt obligation of lenders when banks fabricate bank credit (loans) which also must be paid back with interest.

Notice that in either of the two means by which money can be created only principal money is EVER created, yet it is always to be paid off with interest. The interest portion is never created. Thus due to interest (and the compounding of same) there is always far more debt inherent in the system than there is money in existence to pay it off. Therefore it is implied within the fractional reserve banking system that a certain percentage of failures (defaults) are both expected and required. The system is literally designed to breed a requisite percentage of failures.

As long as the system itself is corrupt some level of culpability exists with those who perpetuate it.
Last edited by lsayre on Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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