The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

lsayre wrote:Lisa and Pete, I could agree fully with your position if we had both an honest money system and honest banks and if money was real, but with fractional reserve banking and fabricated money the entire monetary system is designed to create a certain number of failures (bankruptcy and foreclosures) as an iherent requirement. This is due to the fact that all fiat money is brought into existence as debt. Either as a debt obligation for the Treasury Department to pay back the Federal Reserve with interest for the permission to print (or keystroke) into existence new money (via the TBills the Treasury Dept. gives to the Fed in return for ederal Reserve Notes (what we think is money), or as a debt obligation of lenders when banks fabricate bank credit (loans) which also must be paid back with interest.

Notice that in either of the two means by which money can be created only principle money is EVER created, yet it is always to be paid off with interest. The interest is never created, only the principle. Thus due to interest (and the compounding of same) there is always far more debt inherent inthe system than there is money in existence to pay it off. Therefore it is implied within the fractional ressrve banking system that a certain percentage of failures (defaults) are both expected and required. The system is literally designed to breed a requisite percentage of failures.

As long as the system itself is corrupt some level of culpability exists with those who perpetuate it.

Yeah, we all know the the government is in crisis due to the special interests. blah, blah, blah That's because people keep voting the same guys into office. Big deal, that's life and it's always been there. Prior to government intervention in the housing market in recent years the system worked well. You busted your butt for a decent house and you rented until you could afford the down payment. You didn't lie about your income, sign a contract and when YOU changed the conditions, complained that it was unfair when things went south. The fact remains that a legal contract was signed and everyone knew or should have known what that paper said. Now to come back and say I didn't know doesn't make it my problem. It becomes my problem when this fraud - remember they lied on the loan application - affects my retirement 401K and it has since many retirement funds are bundled in real estate. My hope is that no one ends up in jail over this except for those in Congress who wanted to be all things to all people. Lisa

IOF. Although my English doesn't permit me to understand all the details of your problems, I feel very sad for you and your family. As someone already said, you are young so the time is in front of you. In a few months, year(s), all that will be the "past". I also had a lot of downsides and hard times in my life, but remember there is always an upside somewhere and I hope it for you as soon as possible.
Take care

Stupid double post.

I didn't vote for this administration nor the last one. I have no faith in either party. I vote Libertarian every election season.

I have placed blame on myself. So has my wife. But I didn't create this. This was in place already. Otherwise there still wouldn't me nearly 2 million people in the same position.

Moving out to a rental is not an option yet. There are other things that need to occur first due to the way the system; that doesn't exist as I've stated is set up.

If there is one thing I've learned. Its that being a home owner has left a bad taste in my mouth. As I'm sure it has to the millions of other people who seem to have perpetrated this themselves. Buying a home, especially in this political climate is by far one of the worst investments anyone could make, next to buying a car. I do know that I won't buy another one and I will be sure to tell others considering it to not.

To those who know what I'm feeling. Thanks for letting me voice my frustrations.

To those who think that I and several million people in this position are to blame and not the system created to harbor it. Meh......

Edit: My wife and I are not frauds. We were put in this position when the loan officer said to do it. You can say what you want about me. But the fact remains my wife was lied to by the loan officer into believing it was right when she didn't know. Also what part of, I'm not on the mortgage. Its my wife's does anyone not understand? I'm merely frustrated because I'm trying to get her, and myself out of this situation. Its also evident several of you only read what you want. You've completely ignored the fact the mortgage we have is an adjustable rate. When the economy and market is good, the mortgage is affordable when the economy and market is *censored* like it has been the mortgage sky rockets.

Some of you have made it clear that im not American and dont deserve the same as you and that I deserve what I have coming to me. That's fine. At any rate, I've said all I'm gonna say.

I'm On Fire wrote:I didn't vote for this administration nor the last one. I have no faith in either party. I vote Libertarian every election season.

I have placed blame on myself. So has my wife. But I didn't create this. This was in place already. Otherwise there still wouldn't me nearly 2 million people in the same position.

Moving out to a rental is not an option yet. There are other things that need to occur first due to the way the system; that doesn't exist as I've stated is set up.

If there is one thing I've learned. Its that being a home owner has left a bad taste in my mouth. As I'm sure it has to the millions of other people who seem to have perpetrated this themselves. Buying a home, especially in this political climate is by far one of the worst investments anyone could make, next to buying a car. I do know that I won't buy another one and I will be sure to tell others considering it to not.

To those who know what I'm feeling. Thanks for letting me voice my frustrations.

To those who think that I and several million people in this position are to blame and not the system created to harbor it. Meh......

Edit: My wife and I are not frauds. We were put in this position when the loan officer said to do it. You can say what you want about me. But the fact remains my wife was lied to by the loan officer into believing it was right when she didn't know. Also what part of, I'm not on the mortgage. Its my wife's does anyone not understand? I'm merely frustrated because I'm trying to get her, and myself out of this situation. Its also evident several of you only read what you want. You've completely ignored the fact the mortgage we have is an adjustable rate. When the economy and market is good, the mortgage is affordable when the economy and market is *censored* like it has been the mortgage sky rockets.

Some of you have made it clear that im not American and dont deserve the same as you and that I deserve what I have coming to me. That's fine. At any rate, I've said all I'm gonna say.

I know how it feels to be alone and up against the wall. I ended up homeless and broke in Chicago, during the Winter, because I helped someone out who I thought was a friend. That friend took my identity behind my back and cleaned me out. I almost died from illness and hunger. It got so bad I thought seriously about ending it all. I'm glad I didn't. I almost didn't make it through that ordeal. It would make a good book. I just want to say that it doesn't matter who's to blame or what mistakes have been made. Your now in a situation and feel helpless, without options. It is extremely frightening and shocks your entire outlook on the World. You must maintain your character and stay true to who you are as a person. Don't sell yourself out or betray your soul for what seems like a quick fix or an easy way out. If you lose who you are in all of this, then you truly have lost everything. Down deep inside yourself the answer lay. You must assess what is valuable and what isn't and spend your effort saving what is worth saving. You will get through this somehow. I don't know how, but; you will. On the other side don't go to sleep with regret because you may have betrayed your conscience. Just think about what I am telling you.

Everything is very clear now concerning what should or should not have been done, but what you have to look at is the conditions existing at the time of the house purchase.

Prices were going up all the time; mortgages were easy to get. There was a lot of pressure to buy now while you still can before prices go even higher. Many homes were purchased before being built with the intention to sell them as soon as they were built with no intention to live in them. Even the contract to buy could be sold for a profit.

It has always been an axiom to buy more house than you could afford since your income could be expected to go up and after a few hard years you have a house worth much more. Even if your income just keeps pace with inflation the mortgage gets cheaper and the house is worth that much more.

Mutual funds backed by mortgages were considered very safe and conservative.

So I find it very hard to criticize anyone who was taken in by a giant flim flam that fooled so many so called experts. And Barny Frank is still shooting his fool mouth off.

I remember an interview with Peter Schiff who predicted the mess long before it happened. He was greeted with outright anger by the experts for saying such outrageous things. So how was an honest working man to know better?

I'm On Fire wrote:I didn't vote for this administration nor the last one. I have no faith in either party. I vote Libertarian every election season.

I have placed blame on myself. So has my wife. But I didn't create this. This was in place already. Otherwise there still wouldn't me nearly 2 million people in the same position.

To those who think that I and several million people in this position are to blame and not the system created to harbor it. Meh......

No you didn't create the system but you or your wife were perfectly willing to go along for the ride. Although, I'm not a lawyer I'd venture to say that the argument that you only did what the loan agent said to do won't hold up in court. As I said, many of us didn't make that choice, we stepped back and said NO. That's was an option you chose not to take.

I'm On Fire wrote: Its also evident several of you only read what you want.

I haven't chosen to "read only what you want." I have read only what you have provided through your postings and that is that you or your wife didn't read the fine print and now are looking for someone to bail you out. You are angry because the lender won't agree to a change in the contract. You are angry that the employer doesn't really want a part-time worker. That's something to be angry about but it's not my fault. ARMs have been around for many years, it's not new as to how they work. You chose to go that route because - how would I know your reasons but you did. That it was a mistake in your case or two million other cases isn't my fault.

I'm On Fire wrote:Some of you have made it clear that im not American and dont deserve the same as you and that I deserve what I have coming to me. That's fine. At any rate, I've said all I'm gonna say.

I don't think anyone implied that you are getting what you have coming to you. At the most we've seemed to say that your bad financial decisions isn't something we should have to bail you out of. I think that your actions have become all together too American. Unfortunately, we have become a nation that looks for help from the government before helping ourselves to the greatest extent possible. I'm not talking about help after a natural disaster or your house burns down. I'm not talking about a hand up, through temporary government programs - I'm talking about bad business decisions which you chose to make. Tell me again why that's my fault, tell me again why I should pay for that through my taxes.

I'm truly sorry that you and your family are having to experience this. I hope things get better for every one quickly. Lisa

There is such a thing as Contributory negligence. In the matter of so many households going under there is clearly fault on the part of both the government and the banks as well as the folks who probably should have known better.

What rankles is that the banks have been made more than whole while the little guy is left holding the bag. Surely the banks could have been pressured to extend and re-write mortgages with lowered payments. They were over a barrel after all. And the government certainly had a moral obligation to right the terrible wrong that they themselves had authored when they stuck their fat fingers into a free or mostly free market.

I think it could be proved in a court of law that the bank loan officer encouraged lying about income if a few others could be found to testify. If there was fraud involved it was on both sides.

I had one mortgage broker tell me about how Alan Greenspan said a buyer could "save" thousands of dollars by taking an "Option ARM".

Luckily, I knew a little about what a liar Greenspan is so I wasn't all that impressed but it's a line that is CLEARLY designed to make people cave to the "great" leader of the Federal Reserve and accept with hushed reverence anything he might say as gospel.

There was money to be made hand over fist and the hard sell was in full effect.

lsayre wrote:Lisa and Pete, I could agree fully with your position if we had both an honest money system and honest banks and if money was real, but with fractional reserve banking and fabricated money the entire monetary system is designed to create a certain number of failures (bankruptcy and foreclosures) as an inherent requirement. This is due to the fact that all fiat money is brought into existence as debt. Either as a debt obligation for the Treasury Department to pay back the Federal Reserve with interest for the permission to print (or keystroke) into existence new money (via the TBills the Treasury Dept. gives to the Fed in return for Federal Reserve Notes (what we think is money), or as a debt obligation of lenders when banks fabricate bank credit (loans) which also must be paid back with interest.

Notice that in either of the two means by which money can be created only principal money is EVER created, yet it is always to be paid off with interest. The interest portion is never created. Thus due to interest (and the compounding of same) there is always far more debt inherent in the system than there is money in existence to pay it off. Therefore it is implied within the fractional reserve banking system that a certain percentage of failures (defaults) are both expected and required. The system is literally designed to breed a requisite percentage of failures.

As long as the system itself is corrupt some level of culpability exists with those who perpetuate it.

Perhaps this will help reinforce your point, Isayre.

That's a good one! Here's another one which I believe gets even more to the point:

lowfog01 wrote: I don't think anyone implied that you are getting what you have coming to you. At the most we've seemed to say that your bad financial decisions isn't something we should have to bail you out of. I think that your actions have become all together too American. Unfortunately, we have become a nation that looks for help from the government before helping ourselves to the greatest extent possible. I'm not talking about help after a natural disaster or your house burns down. I'm not talking about a hand up, through temporary government programs - I'm talking about bad business decisions which you chose to make. Tell me again why that's my fault, tell me again why I should pay for that through my taxes.

I'm truly sorry that you and your family are having to experience this. I hope things get better for every one quickly. Lisa

[/quote]

I think that is what he is upset about. He may have made a bad decision, but on the flip side of the coin We gave GM all that money and the banks got a bail out. My question to you is didn't they make the same bad decisions? It is just tough to swallow when the ones who got us into this got all the money in the end



Eric

Far be it from me to kick someone when they're down - so don't think that's what I'm trying to do here. Seems like I've spent more of my life "down", than "up". Sleeping in the back seat of my '78 Cutlass for several months back in '96 comes to mind ....

But this nagging question is stuck in my mind: why would your wife .. or anyone ... agree to lie about their income in order to get a house? The other nagging question is: why on earth would anyone even THINK of getting anything but a traditional, 30 year mortgage? Was she about to live on the streets with the kids if you didn't buy the house that instant?

I don't mean to be rude - these are legit questions. I honestly don't understand. I can't dream of one instance where I would need to do that so help me figure this out.

When the wife & I were house hunting, the bank told us we qualified for $240K .... and I asked what the monthly payments would be on that .. and I about had heart failure! They said "oh everyone owes that percentage of their income to housing". I said "good for everyone". I took the 150K mortgage.

My house is a mouse infested dump. But it keeps me dry when it rains (as long as I stay out of the basement ...). I'm thinking maybe more people today should step back & think a bit like we did. You don't need a new hip roof colonial .. or 2 new cars. A '76 Pinto will get you to work just as well as a '11 Mercedes .. but for MUCH cheaper. I'd rather be laughed at than be working solely for my house & car. Nobody thinks like me these days. But I'm VERY aware that I could be out on my ass in a moments notice, sleeping in the back of the Marquis. I always expect that, & maybe that's the only reason I've avoided it so far, but I digress.

I'm just a dumb mechanic/truck driver. I'm no better than anyone. I guess I figure if I've managed to hold on to this dump this long, anyone can.

Yea, what smitty said. And I hope that you don't think I'm trying to kick you when you're down. I'm just trying to slap you, to wake you up. I'm not playing almighty either, because I'm no stranger to park benches, walking the streets at night during the winter because it was too cold to fall asleep, or ducking into apartment house basements to sleep next to the boiler. Even after I had kids, living in a rundown trailer with only one old beat up pullout couch bed to sleep on with wife, two kids, and no washer and dryer. All the while every one around me on similar incomes, getting sucked into the rent to own beds and appliances scams. Then a month or two latter watching the repo truck show up to take back their stuff, while they cried and threatened to sue. It sucks and I speak with experience.

Now I know the scams, Big and small, all too well and no one here could hate them more than I. The injustice of it all is just staggering.

But to say things like, you have to look at the flip side of the coin, and yes but GM and the banks stole the money too, is just a grown up way of acting like a four year old child. Dad he hit me first and yes but she did the same thing yesterday, he stole a cooky too. I never let my children get away with any of that stuff. I held them accountable for their actions regardless of what others did.

Again I know the system is designed to make failures and rape the rest.

So if anyone hasn't totally grasped exactly what I'm trying to say, let me put it to you real simple.
We have to find some TRUE GRIT and STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

Coalfire wrote:

lowfog01 wrote: I don't think anyone implied that you are getting what you have coming to you. At the most we've seemed to say that your bad financial decisions isn't something we should have to bail you out of. I think that your actions have become all together too American. Unfortunately, we have become a nation that looks for help from the government before helping ourselves to the greatest extent possible. I'm not talking about help after a natural disaster or your house burns down. I'm not talking about a hand up, through temporary government programs - I'm talking about bad business decisions which you chose to make. Tell me again why that's my fault, tell me again why I should pay for that through my taxes.

I'm truly sorry that you and your family are having to experience this. I hope things get better for every one quickly. Lisa

I think that is what he is upset about. He may have made a bad decision, but on the flip side of the coin We gave GM all that money and the banks got a bail out. My question to you is didn't they make the same bad decisions? It is just tough to swallow when the ones who got us into this got all the money in the end Eric[/quote]

I agree with you 100% and he has every right to be upset but it's not our responsibility to fix it for him. We had no business bailing those companies out either. I've said that time and again. They should have been left to reorganize and rebuild into smaller, stronger companies. Unfortunately, that didn't happen so now we are supposed to pick up the pieces for every failing business or family who makes bad decisions. How does that work? It can't, it's unsustainable. Because our government tried to be all things to all people, its screwed everyone as it always does. That's why the federal government is supposed to be small with only a few distinct authorities. Until we return to that model we are going to be screwed time and time again.

I truly am sorry that this is happening in America to good people but two wrongs don't make a right and it has to stop somewhere. I'm getting ready for the other shoe to drop - when the excrement hits the oscillator as it has in Greece. Who are we going to turn to to fix everything then? No, we've just about run out of other people's money and harder times are coming. I don't see a way to avoid it with the mindset in Washington but that's for another post. Lisa