The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:15 am

When we bought our house, we needed to have a 20% down payment. The bank also verified our income and did credit checks before lending us 51k to buy our house. Our mortgage is paid off and we own everything but the wife's car, which we owe a few thousand dollars on. Our theory has always been to save and pay for the things we want and it has worked out well for us. We learned to do without the best of the best a long time ago. We never expected or wanted the government to "help" us. We do not live beyond our means and are happy with what we have.
SuperBeetle
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark II
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Nut, & Stove Anthracite

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: vermontash On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:25 am

You guys are kidding, right? Where I come from, if a guy lies on his loan application to fool the bank into loaning him money that he doesnt really deserve (and cant repay), we call it bank fraud. If I were the liar I wouldnt publish that fact. The system may well be broken but in this case the system worked. You must learn to live within your means and be honest in your dealings. Its as simple as that.
vermontash
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm 520 X2
Stove/Furnace Model: (3) AA 260

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:31 am

Don`t know if this applies here or not but I was at an auction yesterday & got into conversation with the heir of the younger deceased owner. He told me that to find out what the payoff on this house was took almost three months, it seems that the mortgage was sold 4 or 5 times & everyone that ever held it was getting a piece of the pie which is one of the things that caused the payments up. Once the holder of the mortgage was found they could deal with them & the others were left high & dry since those sales were between them, it didn't seem logical to me but the man told me that the settlement with the holder was saving him a little over 22 grand on a house that they are asking $250k for. Boy have things changed since I sold any real estate.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75


Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:50 am

IOF, what Sam said made me remember something. Check out this video, it might be helpful to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kswEb-iV ... ture=share

There is a lawyer here doing this. I've heard him a number of times. Basically, when you sign a mortgage with "ABC Mortgage Co" and they turn and sell it to "XYZ Bank" but for whatever reason, the paperwork is never transferred, when XYZ tries to foreclose, unless they can produce that paperwork, you don't owe a dime to XYZ, and they aren't legally the owner of the asset and cannot foreclose on it.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: I'm On Fire On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:52 am

SMITTY wrote:But this nagging question is stuck in my mind: why would your wife .. or anyone ... agree to lie about their income in order to get a house? The other nagging question is: why on earth would anyone even THINK of getting anything but a traditional, 30 year mortgage? Was she about to live on the streets with the kids if you didn't buy the house that instant?


I've known my wife since we were 2. Her older sister and my older sister were best friends. But, my wife and I didn't start dating until 2005. At the time she bought this house, which I believe was in 2004 I was living in Colorado. I had another life. I moved back in 2005 after I made some very bad decisions (of which I've paid for). So, as to why? I don't know. I don't know what was going through her head.

But I also have a question. How does a new home buyer know? Seriously. A new home buyer doesn't know what they are getting themselves in. Especially when they have nothing to base the decision on. For example. My bad decision that led me back to Jersey from Colorado involved a poor one to go to Michigan. But, I didn't know that until I made the decision and it cost me my home in Colorado and job. How could I have known the woman I was dating at the time was going to take me for everything I had? I didn't. So, how could my wife have honestly known that what she did in '04 to get into this house was going to screw her and us into the position we're now in, 7 years later? She couldn't have possibly known. And to say that "You put yourself in this position" is absolutely ludicrous. On one hand, yes, the decision to buy the home has ultimately put us in this position but at the time, since she was a first time home buyer she could have never known. Responsibility lies on the realtor, loan officer, lawyer and bank to tell her the risks. Of which, they did not. They say $$$$ and that's that.

To also put our lifestyle in perspective for everyone here.

She paid $167k for this house. Its a single level ranch sitting on maybe 1/4 acre of land. Anyone who has been to my home, and there are several from this very board can tell you. It's not a nice home. When we had money we started renovating. So, walls are missing or partially constructed, there are holes in the ceiling, walls where they were cut to run wire. The house itself was built in 1948. Its drafty. The kitchen is large enough to fit 1 person. The floor creak. The floors sag in spots. The oil furnace is 40 years old, barely works (which is the main reason we've switched to coal). The septic system needs to be replaced as it no longer functions properly (but we don't have $50k to replace it). The kitchen sink "vapor" locks since there is no vent on it. We own 3 vehicles. One a 2011 Hyundai Accent that is too small for our family, but its all we can afford. A 1999 Dodge Dakota that is completely paid for but is showing signs of its age. A 1999 Dodge Neon that I bought long before I was married (I was 19 when I bought it) it too is completely paid for, I put a lot of money into this car and when my wife and I began to notice we were in trouble the car was dismantled and sold off in parts. I've withdrawn from my 401k several times to pay the mortgage as well as completely closed another 401k that I had from a previous job. My wife has done the same thing, in fact she is on her third "hardship" loan through her 401k. Our home, like yours Smitty routinely sees mice, squirrels, bats even a ground hog has found its way into it. To think that my wife and I own a McMansion and drive several Mercedes is stupid. To say we are standing in a line with our hand out is false. For several years we've been doing this on our own. We however are exhausting all of our options.

Pete69, Lisa,

You both claim you that, "you are sorry to hear" and "we're not trying to give you a hard time" but in every one of your posts you've both been very condescending. Don't either of you realize that my wife and I already know we've *censored* up? I mean, hasn't it been obvious that we've been struggling for two years trying to fix this ourselves from my "rant"? Do you honestly think I want to be in this position? Do you think I want to spend money I really don't have to buy a lawyer and file for Chapter 13? Trust me, this isn't something that was planned 7 years ago. No one plans to be in this position; unlike you claim. I don't need either of you sitting on your high-horses screaming at me that, "you did this your self. It's your fault the country is the way it is". There have been others in this thread that have basically said the same things as you but they've done it in a more polite way, and I've been more than happen to try to explain it to the best of my knowledge. I never said I completely understand whats happening or why I'm where I am. All I know is that I need to fix it and get out of it. But to do that, yes, I need outside help. If big business can cut into my 401k and my tax money to get out of the same mistakes that I'm currently making then why can't I? Why the double standard? Oh, because its someone that you've both had conversations with on the forum in the past. Its different when you can put a "face" to the problem. Its ok to spend your money to bail out, TARP and golden parachute AIG, BoA, GM, Chrysler because you aren't physically connected to anyone there. But here, we have a common interest. Coal. Why the *censored* should your money help me I should've been smart enough. Sorry, the reality is that I don't have the clairvoyance or Jedi abilities as you two. If the world was as perfect as the both of you then there wouldn't be nearly 2 million people in the same position. Sorry to disappoint. But this is the reality of the world we live in. Get used to it. It sucks that I have to do this. I'm pissed because for 7 years I've watched my money go to fix everyone elses' problems in the corporate world and yet, when I need a "bail" out I'm told to *censored* off. You think I haven't felt the effects of corporate dishonesty? I work for Tyco Int. The jack offs who started it all with Enron. Those *censored* took my money in 200/1 and squandered it while I worked for them. One idiot is in prison for life, the other ate a bullet in his office. Yeah, I'm pissed. Regardless of what either of you think, I am entitled to owning a home, raising a family and making an honest living. And up until this point, I think I've done a damn good job if it weren't for the dishonesty in the housing market. Sure, mistakes were made. Don't I *censored* know it, my wife does too. But we don't need to be told it's our fault and we need to take whatever punishment is due to us when we were put in this position by a loan officer, a bank and a realtor. Yup, my wife shouldn't of signed the loan papers. Hind-sight is 20/20. Too bad 7 years ago she didn't know. No one was there to tell her how wrong it was. Especially when the loan officer, bank and realtor were telling her, "Its normal, SOP." Again I ask, who is really to blame? It's the system that was created that put 2 million people and several countries into this position. Sorry. If AIG wasn't bailed out the world economy would crumble. Funny, AIG was bailed out and the world economy is still falling. Just slower. AIG should have been left to die. Same with Chrysler and GM and all those other golden parachuting *censored*. They created this mess. Not me. But everyone has to clean it up. Including myself.

Jpete,

My mortgage has been sold at least 3 times before ending up at BoA, it may have been sold more but we were only told of two times. And we only found out about the first time when we were making payments to one company that was cashing our checks but not applying the money to the account. It just disappeared. I surmise it was going into some *censored* pocket.
I'm On Fire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machines DS-1600 Hot Air Circulator

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:08 am

Well then you REALLY need to force them to produce the note. BoA is one of the worst offenders with this stuff. You may not owe them squat. I've heard stories from people that they haven't paid a mortgage in a year because the bank can't prove they are owed anything.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: SuperBeetle On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:28 am

I'm On Fire wrote:
SMITTY wrote:But this nagging question is stuck in my mind: why would your wife .. or anyone ... agree to lie about their income in order to get a house? The other nagging question is: why on earth would anyone even THINK of getting anything but a traditional, 30 year mortgage? Was she about to live on the streets with the kids if you didn't buy the house that instant?


I've known my wife since we were 2. Her older sister and my older sister were best friends. But, my wife and I didn't start dating until 2005. At the time she bought this house, which I believe was in 2004 I was living in Colorado. I had another life. I moved back in 2005 after I made some very bad decisions (of which I've paid for). So, as to why? I don't know. I don't know what was going through her head.

But I also have a question. How does a new home buyer know? Seriously. A new home buyer doesn't know what they are getting themselves in. Especially when they have nothing to base the decision on. For example. My bad decision that led me back to Jersey from Colorado involved a poor one to go to Michigan. But, I didn't know that until I made the decision and it cost me my home in Colorado and job. How could I have known the woman I was dating at the time was going to take me for everything I had? I didn't. So, how could my wife have honestly known that what she did in '04 to get into this house was going to screw her and us into the position we're now in, 7 years later? She couldn't have possibly known. And to say that "You put yourself in this position" is absolutely ludicrous. On one hand, yes, the decision to buy the home has ultimately put us in this position but at the time, since she was a first time home buyer she could have never known. Responsibility lies on the realtor, loan officer, lawyer and bank to tell her the risks. Of which, they did not. They say $$$$ and that's that.

To also put our lifestyle in perspective for everyone here.

She paid $167k for this house. Its a single level ranch sitting on maybe 1/4 acre of land. Anyone who has been to my home, and there are several from this very board can tell you. It's not a nice home. When we had money we started renovating. So, walls are missing or partially constructed, there are holes in the ceiling, walls where they were cut to run wire. The house itself was built in 1948. Its drafty. The kitchen is large enough to fit 1 person. The floor creak. The floors sag in spots. The oil furnace is 40 years old, barely works (which is the main reason we've switched to coal). The septic system needs to be replaced as it no longer functions properly (but we don't have $50k to replace it). The kitchen sink "vapor" locks since there is no vent on it. We own 3 vehicles. One a 2011 Hyundai Accent that is too small for our family, but its all we can afford. A 1999 Dodge Dakota that is completely paid for but is showing signs of its age. A 1999 Dodge Neon that I bought long before I was married (I was 19 when I bought it) it too is completely paid for, I put a lot of money into this car and when my wife and I began to notice we were in trouble the car was dismantled and sold off in parts. I've withdrawn from my 401k several times to pay the mortgage as well as completely closed another 401k that I had from a previous job. My wife has done the same thing, in fact she is on her third "hardship" loan through her 401k. Our home, like yours Smitty routinely sees mice, squirrels, bats even a ground hog has found its way into it. To think that my wife and I own a McMansion and drive several Mercedes is stupid. To say we are standing in a line with our hand out is false. For several years we've been doing this on our own. We however are exhausting all of our options.

Pete69, Lisa,

You both claim you that, "you are sorry to hear" and "we're not trying to give you a hard time" but in every one of your posts you've both been very condescending. Don't either of you realize that my wife and I already know we've *censored* up? I mean, hasn't it been obvious that we've been struggling for two years trying to fix this ourselves from my "rant"? Do you honestly think I want to be in this position? Do you think I want to spend money I really don't have to buy a lawyer and file for Chapter 13? Trust me, this isn't something that was planned 7 years ago. No one plans to be in this position; unlike you claim. I don't need either of you sitting on your high-horses screaming at me that, "you did this your self. It's your fault the country is the way it is". There have been others in this thread that have basically said the same things as you but they've done it in a more polite way, and I've been more than happen to try to explain it to the best of my knowledge. I never said I completely understand whats happening or why I'm where I am. All I know is that I need to fix it and get out of it. But to do that, yes, I need outside help. If big business can cut into my 401k and my tax money to get out of the same mistakes that I'm currently making then why can't I? Why the double standard? Oh, because its someone that you've both had conversations with on the forum in the past. Its different when you can put a "face" to the problem. Its ok to spend your money to bail out, TARP and golden parachute AIG, BoA, GM, Chrysler because you aren't physically connected to anyone there. But here, we have a common interest. Coal. Why the *censored* should your money help me I should've been smart enough. Sorry, the reality is that I don't have the clairvoyance or Jedi abilities as you two. If the world was as perfect as the both of you then there wouldn't be nearly 2 million people in the same position. Sorry to disappoint. But this is the reality of the world we live in. Get used to it. It sucks that I have to do this. I'm pissed because for 7 years I've watched my money go to fix everyone elses' problems in the corporate world and yet, when I need a "bail" out I'm told to *censored* off. You think I haven't felt the effects of corporate dishonesty? I work for Tyco Int. The jack offs who started it all with Enron. Those *censored* took my money in 200/1 and squandered it while I worked for them. One idiot is in prison for life, the other ate a bullet in his office. Yeah, I'm pissed. Regardless of what either of you think, I am entitled to owning a home, raising a family and making an honest living. And up until this point, I think I've done a damn good job if it weren't for the dishonesty in the housing market. Sure, mistakes were made. Don't I *censored* know it, my wife does too. But we don't need to be told it's our fault and we need to take whatever punishment is due to us when we were put in this position by a loan officer, a bank and a realtor. Yup, my wife shouldn't of signed the loan papers. Hind-sight is 20/20. Too bad 7 years ago she didn't know. No one was there to tell her how wrong it was. Especially when the loan officer, bank and realtor were telling her, "Its normal, SOP." Again I ask, who is really to blame? It's the system that was created that put 2 million people and several countries into this position. Sorry. If AIG wasn't bailed out the world economy would crumble. Funny, AIG was bailed out and the world economy is still falling. Just slower. AIG should have been left to die. Same with Chrysler and GM and all those other golden parachuting *censored*. They created this mess. Not me. But everyone has to clean it up. Including myself.

Jpete,

My mortgage has been sold at least 3 times before ending up at BoA, it may have been sold more but we were only told of two times. And we only found out about the first time when we were making payments to one company that was cashing our checks but not applying the money to the account. It just disappeared. I surmise it was going into some *censored* pocket.


:wtf: :blah: :down:
SuperBeetle
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark II
Coal Size/Type: Pea, Nut, & Stove Anthracite

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: wsherrick On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:27 pm

I'm On Fire, you need to get a hold of yourself and fast. Did you not read what I told you above. Emotion doesn't do anything but make matters worse. You need to stop feeling and start thinking clearly. Being angry and feeling jipped by life, even though you are justified, isn't going to solve your immediate problem. A lot of us know what it's like to feel cheated and have been treated unfairly. It doesn't mean you have to go down the same route or give up. You need a lawyer, you can't handle this by yourself. Please listen to me and listen to reason. If you don't deal with these issues now then you will end up being 50 years old with them still hanging over your head or still in your head. Find a lawyer and get busy. You may loose your current home and have a set back, but; not dealing with it will cost you a lot more and this will last for years and years. I repeat, stop running scared and being mad. Start thinking straight.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:34 pm

I'm On Fire wrote:. Regardless of what either of you think, I am entitled to owning a home, raising a family and making an honest living. And up until this point, I think I've done a damn good job if it weren't for the dishonesty in the housing market.


Gee, please send me a copy of your version of the Declaration of Independence. My copy is dated July 4 1776 and it doesn't mention an entitlement to own a home, raise a family or make an honest living. In fact, the only truths it proclaims are those endowed by their Creator (with a capital C.) Those rights of course being "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." It goes on to say "That to secure these these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Hmmm, nothing about having an entitlement to own a home, raise a family or make an honest living there. It doesn't even say that the government has to do anything but make sure you have the opportunity to try to reach for the stars same as everyone else. Bummer! Maybe the part about entitlements is in the Constitution. That's dated September 17, 1787 - nope nothing there either. Of course, that only includes the first ten amendments - The Bill Of Rights. The entitlement to own a home, raise a family or make an honest living must be in one of the other amendments. Nope, nothing about an entitlement to own a home, raise a family or make an honest living there either. How about that? There is no guarantee in either founding document establishing an entitlement of any kind. I guess we are expected to achieve the American dream all by ourselves. What a concept!

This statement "Regardless of what either of you think, I am entitled to owning a home, raising a family and making an honest living. And up until this point, I think I've done a damn good job if it weren't for the dishonesty in the housing market" tells me all I need to know about why you are in the mess you are in. There is nothing else to say. You have decided to become "Poor Uncle Bill" and blame everyone else for your troubles. Nothing any one is going to say is going to change that because you only see yourself as getting screwed despite admitting your own questionable actions in the matter. In your mind you have worked hard enough to warrant achieving the American dream and you want NOW what you KNOW is due you. Sorry, despite what anyone may tell you it doesn't work that way.

At the risk of being thought condescending, if you want to get out of this mess, listen to Will, do what's necessary and stop whining about how the system is screwed; it is what it is. Lisa
lowfog01
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Mark II & Mark I
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:49 pm

I'm On Fire wrote:Responsibility lies on the realtor, loan officer, lawyer and bank to tell her the risks. Of which, they did not.

Morally speaking you are right. These folks used the system, took their one-time profit on the deal and went their merry way, leaving you holding the bag for the long term. By unfortunate coincidence, at the same time the "system" f*cked the economy over, held it for ransom until they got bailed out, and left your wife underemployed so the original bad deal on the house became totally unsustainable. In a more just world a lot of these "system" players would be in jail.

So morally speaking, you are right. But as you see there is precious little morality built into the system, and you got sucked in and screwed over with some complicity and naivety of your own. So what to do now? Think of yourself at the mall, standing in front of the map with the little tag saying "You are here." Never mind how you got here, it is too late to do anything about that. But try to figure out where you want to go from here, and try to map out a path to get there. I know, easy for me to say, but I don't know what else to suggest. Hopefully in a few years this will all be just a bad memory.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:55 pm

"Never was so much owed by so many to so few."
Winston Churchill

Somehow I doubt that he foresaw the day when the masses would be placed on the financial hook for multiple generations to come in order to give trillions of dollars to a few scum NY big banks, inept and totally degenerate and bankrupt car companies, and three card Monte Wall Street investment banks and brokerage houses that were scamming their own clients big time.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:10 pm

That said, it was the combined greed and utter corruption of the banks and the house flippers and those home purchasers who had been overcome, smitten, and driven by pure greed as house prices seemed to rise in value for several uninterrupted decades on end who artificially inflated house values to what they thought would be no end. On the other hand many with good hearts and good intentions who were in need of a home whereby to raise a family simply got caught up in a bad situation and a bad time and had to pay exorbitant prices or not have a chance to own a home.

My guess is that house prices still have perhaps another decade of declines (30-40%) ahead of them, and many more millions will be driven from them.

I still contend that any culpability for the situation that many face with looming foreclosures is a shared responsibility. The sellers and lenders were just as greed smitten and blinded as were the buyers. Perhaps the big banks that received trillions in bailouts could lend a hand to the commoners in need here? Yea, that'll be the day.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:26 pm

An analogy might be drawn here with when both Adam and Eve were beguiled by the Serpent (either directly or indirectly) and as a consequence fell into sin. The culpability and thus punishment for "their" sin was meeted out both to the seed of Adam and Eve and to the seed of the Serpent (Gen. 3:15). It was thus a fully shared culpability. Now if those desiring to become homeowners were being routinely beguiled by the lenders and by the easy money policies of the Federal Reserve, and by the desire of the government itself for everyone to qualify regardless of their situation, their employment and income history, and their Fica score, should this not also result in shared culpability and liability?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:32 am

Isn't it ironic that in February of 2009, Jamie Dimon -- the CEO of massively bailed-out JP Morgan went on CNBC to deliver a sermon about the moral obligation of covering one's own mortgage losses and not walking away or running to someone else for help. On CNBC he said:

"I don't think just because someone's underwater [in their home], they say, I don't have to stay there," he said. "They're supposed to pay the mortgage, and we should teach the American people, you're supposed to meet your obligations, not run from them."

My take:

This man is well beyond totally disgusting. His mega-bank would quite likely be in foreclosure right now if not for the massive bail-outs he accepted. Why is he to be rewarded with untold quantities of too big to fail bailout dollars while those such as IOF and his wife are left to be lectured (OK, lets be honest here, humiliated) and put down by this Dimon (my spelling error here is intentional, as I substituted his last name for what I was really thinking) about how they must bone up like good boys and girls and take what's coming to them if they are still to be considered good citizens.

Disclaimer:

The first two paragraphs above were scarfed (admittedly plagiarised if you will, though with slight modification to the first paragraph by me) off of an article on the Salon.Com website, wherein this CNBC rant by Jamie Dimon achieved for him the third highest "Let Them Eat Cake" award from Salon. That there were two let them eat cake moments considered more grievous than this one is amazing in itself.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: The system is broken.....and I'm angry.......

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:59 am

The way I see it is the big boys get bailed out simply because they would take too many with them & put the country in even worse shape. Someone on main st. or even a lot on it don`t really pull anyone else down in their way of thinking but if enough small people fail it also causes a larger effect with the inability to pay taxes & purchase the everyday necessities yet alone the want to haves. At least with the auto industry & a few others there was payback + some Int., the banks got a gift, free money to do with what they wanted, I really question how close to failing some were. I don`t recall any mass employee reductions of any other cost cutting measures like perhaps cutting bonuses, why would you even want to retain people that helped bring the bank down? I think bonuses in that industry is nothing more than hush money as was the whole tarp thing. There is a right IMO to be upset with the system when it is tilted only in one direction. There should be a long line of people being convicted of fraud from CEOs & politicians on down to R.E. agents.
samhill
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: keystoker 160
Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: koker 160/ hitzer 75