son's rifle /// need bullets for whitetail deer

The PA. game comission has a mentored youth hunt for kids under 12 for deer. I found a Remington 7615 police model like the 7600 pump but only a 16 1/2 barrel and a collapseable stock, will work well as he grows. It's only a .223 remington (5.56)and uses M 16 clips, it's good for low recoil (I watched his eyes lite up today with the pull of the trigger ) but it's a little small for deer. Are their any bullets that you recomend for maximum expansion. I remember and have some of the old Black Tallons ,but as far as I know, they stoped manufacture over a lawsuit.http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

I would look at hornady 75 grain superformance. There have been many a deer gone down with a 223. Just work with him on shot placement, which I am sure youi will do and enjoy doing it. If youi cannot find that round, then look at any of the ballistic tip bullets 60 grain and up. Hornady would be my first choice.

Yeah that .223 might be small, but boy does it move!! Some are close to 4,000 fps!!

You'll want something that expands nicely, like those Black Talons. Yeah, those got banned by the typical left wing media frenzy they fabricated, calling them "cop killers" back then. That was the end of that. Media wouldn't be able to see the difference between a .17, & a S&W .50 magnum, so there you go. There are similar & better rounds out there now ... only without the media hype.

From what I know, the black talons were stoped by the NAACP, they were supposedly designed to kill black people, I think they would work on anyone I bought a box in 45acp when an older gent at the gun club told me they go in like your finger and out the back like a bolling ball.

Funny thing yesterday, took my son the the gun club and 4 guy's come in, thought to myself here goes the neighborhood. The one had a monster mowhalk like MR. T. Anyway, they all have semi auto and FULLY auto rifles and hand guns with some having SILENCERS. The one needed to borrow my binoculars(all the money for weapons and no binoculars), and after talking to them, I guess they were ok guys. They had a pint jar of some type of explosive when hit by a bullet it explodes. They took it out to 75 yards, and after many attemps discovered they could not hit it AND tried at 50 yards while we watched (getting ready to fall asleep) and after numerous attemps still not hitting it (I was ready to ask if I should get my open sight rifle out and hit it for them, with 1 shot ) The one said he has a federal stamp for the full auto,(IN THE PAST) he had the police show up after people call about the full auto and silencer. The police wanted to take the firearm, he said, they better call the ATF number before doing so, or the police officer could be in deep water.

Absolutely the local LEO has to respect the Fed tax stamp. If he has the paper work for full auto or the suppressor he is legal, providing he is obeying all other laws. They cannot confiscate the weapon becaue they do not like it, that would be a law suit they would loose.
It is only $200.00 for each device for the life of the weapon. Not to mention that for a full auto weapon he mostlikely paid multiple thousands of dollars.

I wish suppressors were not like that, it sure would make a day at the range less annoying to folks living close by.

I have nothing against the full auto or the supressors, I have a semi auto myself (I do like the full but I don't need the problems ). Just 4 guys at one time in the same car, and the gun club has a sign (no semi or full auto's) if they are used sparingly, no problem, but I figured these guys would shoot up the place, I was wrong. The part I did not like was I am trying to show my son to shoot his .22lr and a shot with the .223 (he needs some time), and with all that distraction, called it a day for us and just spectaded.

I would check what Remington is making nowadays in 223.

mooseman100 wrote:Absolutely the local LEO has to respect the Fed tax stamp.

They have to but sadly they often don't. Once a they seize the weapon it can be very difficult to recover. There are more than enough horror stories out there.

I don't think that the black talons were ever banned, at least not on the federal level maybe in some states. I believe they were Winchesters & they simply quit making them because of all the bad press. I have some Rangers thay are supposed to be the same, mine are 45scal. don't know what all they are made for. I think it was New York that put up the biggest stink but go ahead & blame it on whoever you like, the truth never gets in your way on anything else. Seems to me you will ruin a lot of meat, a clean shot always wins out in my opinion.

SMITTY wrote:Yeah that .223 might be small, but boy does it move!! Some are close to 4,000 fps!!

You'll want something that expands nicely, like those Black Talons. Yeah, those got banned by the typical left wing media frenzy they fabricated, calling them "cop killers" back then. That was the end of that. Media wouldn't be able to see the difference between a .17, & a S&W .50 magnum, so there you go. There are similar & better rounds out there now ... only without the media hype.

36 gr bullet 3750 FPS lightest bullet made 90 gr heaviest 2750 FPS
To Get 4000 FPS Range or More You Need to move up to 220 swift or 22-250 3600 fps to 4300 fps

I don't think he reloads anything so most likely he will be using a factory load or custom load. Very much doubt he will see even close to 3000 in that short of a barrel, but velocity isn't everything, i would worry about shot placement as said before. You can get 62 grain pointed soft point for a decent price, anything heavier might not shoot good as the twist of the barrel wasn't made for the heavier bullets. Check out http://www.usaammo.com/

Caliber 223 Rem
Grain 62
Type PSP
Velocity 3090
I've probably shot 5000 rounds of 22 caliber reloads (221,222,223,22-250,220Swift)through a Oehler 35P and can get 4000 on a 22-250 custom 26 " rebarreled by pushing it but the swift i could get 4000 and have room to spare, accuracy was never as good as a lighter load.

[quote="mozzI don't think he reloads anything so most likely he will be using a factory load or custom load. Very much doubt he will see even close to 3000 in that short of a barrel, but velocity isn't everything, i would worry about shot placement as said before. You can get 62 grain pointed soft point for a decent price, anything heavier might not shoot good as the twist of the barrel wasn't made for the heavier bullets. Check out http://www.usaammo.com/

Caliber 223 Rem
Grain 62
Type PSP
Velocity 3090
I've probably shot 5000 rounds of 22 caliber reloads (221,222,223,22-250,220Swift)through a Oehler 35P and can get 4000 on a 22-250 custom 26 " rebarreled by pushing it but the swift i could get 4000 and have room to spare, accuracy was never as good as a lighter load.[/quote]
That was my point nowhere near 4000 like Smitty said with 223 I to loaded thousands of round of all calibers owned a
firearm shop 20 years plus years and was a partner in one for another 16 years commercial reloading with a fleet of Dillon's & RCBS loaded more then most will ever see in a life time carry on
back in the late 80's a few guys were experimenting with 22 - 240 mag trying to develop for market problems was at the time none of the 22 cal bullets would stay together long enought they would vaporized in mid flight fps where up to 5100 before the bullet would vaporized

coal berner wrote:back in the late 80's a few guys were experimenting with 22 - 240 mag trying to develop for market problems was at the time none of the 22 cal bullets would stay together long enought they would vaporized in mid flight fps where up to 5100 before the bullet would vaporized

I can't imagine barrel life would have been very good at those velocities, either. That's a lot of powder to blast down an awfully small hole.

I have a copy of "The Book of the 22: The All-American Caliber " by Sam Fadala. It's a great read on the history of the .22, both centerfire and rimfire cartridges. I thought the .22 PPC was an interesting cartridge - good muzzle velocity and supreme accuracy. For a "super" .22 caliber, the .226 Barnes QT is almost freakish, shooting a 125 grain bullet that looked like an Oscar Mayer weiner out of a barrel with 5-1/2 twist (QT = Quick Twist).

Overall, the author makes a great case for small calibers taking down big game provided the loads contain the proper bullet, i.e. one designed to penetrate and expand rather than fragment like a varmint bullet.

europachris wrote:

coal burner wrote:back in the late 80's a few guys were experimenting with 22 - 240 mag trying to develop for market problems was at the time none of the 22 cal bullets would stay together long enought they would vaporized in mid flight fps where up to 5100 before the bullet would vaporized

I can't imagine barrel life would have been very good at those velocities, either. That's a lot of powder to blast down an awfully small hole.

I have a copy of "The Book of the 22: The All-American Caliber " by Sam Fadala. It's a great read on the history of the .22, both centerfire and rimfire cartridges. I thought the .22 PPC was an interesting cartridge - good muzzle velocity and supreme accuracy. For a "super" .22 caliber, the .226 Barnes QT is almost freakish, shooting a 125 grain bullet that looked like an Oscar Mayer weiner out of a barrel with 5-1/2 twist (QT = Quick Twist).

Overall, the author makes a great case for small calibers taking down big game provided the loads contain the proper bullet, i.e. one designed to penetrate and expand rather than fragment like a varmint bullet.

Yea good solid base bullet and placement with small Cal's are a must for taking big game lots are taking each year with small
Cal's. barrel life would be short but tech is here to make a long lasting barrel Problem is they have not develop bullets yet
to stay together at those speeds one day soon you will see it.