Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Berlin wrote:well, I disagree lisa. Regardless, what the OP's trying to do will cause no fire hazard or risk of loss. It can be done safely without blindly following code.


Ok. why are we still discussing this? We have different points of view, big deal. I thought the idea was to hear all the options. It's not the first time people disagreed with me nor will it be the last. Being different makes the world interesting. Take care, Lisa
lowfog01
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Mark II & Mark I
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:18 pm

lowfog01 wrote:
Berlin wrote:well, I disagree lisa. Regardless, what the OP's trying to do will cause no fire hazard or risk of loss. It can be done safely without blindly following code.


Ok. why are we still discussing this? We have different points of view, big deal. I thought the idea was to hear all the options. It's not the first time people disagreed with me nor will it be the last. Being different makes the world interesting. Take care, Lisa


It can be done safely if nothing goes wrong. Things always seem to go wrong. Insurance companies are not going to gladly pay out a claim without an investigation. And they are looking for any reason to say it's not covered. I wouldn't be so worried about a fire from the shared flue proposed as much as I would spilling flue gases and CO in the event the chimney becomes somehow obstructed. The boilers draft hood would be the easiest way for flue gases to escape in that case. Also as already stated, that vent is too close to the wood above.

I assume you are talking about a stoker boiler? Once you start using it you will very likley find you don't need to keep the propane boiler running. Why not just disconnect the propane boilers vent pipe and turn off the gas? If you are going away, turn off the stoker and reconnect the propane boilers vent pipe. Unless you go away alot, no big deal, 5 minute job. You don't need a power venter and you won't gas yourself.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: sterling40man On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:27 pm

lowfog01 wrote:Yeah, I know a lot of people have done this safely for years and realistically there is only one time you need to meet code - the morning after you've had a fire and are talking to your insurance company. That's not a gamble I'd be willing to take. No, Sting has the best solution and it doesn't cost all that much for the peace of mind. Lisa


Fine. Power vent the propane boiler........lower your thimble........then connect the stoker to the chimney. This is what I should have said to begin with. End of discussion. :D
sterling40man
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker K6
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker
Stove/Furnace Model: KA-6


Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Wallknight On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:49 pm

Ok, how much is it going to cost to retrofit a powerventer on the ancient boiler? Can that even be done? Unless it can be done super cheap, its not worth it on that old thing.

No, the alaska is not a boiler. I have no intention of piping water through the baseboards from it. No need.

Can I put the propane boiler lower? I'm totally clueless on the specs of the old thing. Does it harm the venting of the boiler to cut several inches off the stack?

But more importantly, what is the fundamental difference between cutting a hole lower on the masonry, vs just cutting a hole into the LP's pipe?

Oh, no, running a separate flu up 4 stories is definitely not an easy or cheap option. The present chimney is actually part structural to the house.
Wallknight
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kast Console II

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: mason coal burner On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:52 pm

i think insurance companies would look for arson and not pay for a set fire . they will pay for stupid . if you are sweating a pipe in your basement and you catch the house on fire they will pay . if your house catches fire from candle or cigarette they will pay . if you have the proper clearances you should be all set .
mason coal burner
 
Stove/Furnace Make: hitzer/glenwood
Stove/Furnace Model: 82/111

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:03 pm

You guys vent your hot water heaters to a chimney?
Mine used to vent to the basement.

:lol: ^ dat true
cArNaGe
 

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Yanche On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:24 pm

Berlin wrote:Lisa, i'm sure there are many things in everyone's house that doesn't meet current code, especially in an older home. this idea that an insurance company is going to deny coverage for something that doesn't meet code and is unrelated to the cause of the fire that burned your home down is absurd. Unless the insurance company can determine that you rigged something with the intent to purposefully burn your home down to collect the insurance money, they will cover a loss resulting from almost any stupid thing you do.

Berlin is right. The insurance company pays for a homeowners stupidity. The insurance company is the risk business. Balancing their income (your premium) from many for payout to a few. They are contractually required to make you whole, return the property to the condition the property was before the sudden unfortunate event occurred. In addition if returning your insured property to it's previous condition prior to the loss, requires a code upgrade so be it. They have to do it. The mistake home owners make in filing a claim is getting their insurance agent involved. The agent is looking out for the insurance company not you. You need to hire someone to represent you, a licensed public adjuster. They understand the legal terms written and unwritten in your policy. Check out http://www.metropa.com for an example of a public adjuster company.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Wallknight On: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:43 pm

Dudes, seriously, please drop the insurance question. I checked years ago, my company wouldnt even care if I heated with gasoline ignited in the bottom of a trashcan. They dont care. Neither do I.

How can this even start a fire? There's nothing flamable going up there.
Wallknight
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kast Console II

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: rockwood On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:00 am

Will the LP boiler be used or are you keeping it for back-up?
Wallknight wrote: (goodbye Surdiac!).

Where was the Surdiac? Maybe the new stove can go in it's place?
Wallknight wrote:But more importantly, what is the fundamental difference between cutting a hole lower on the masonry, vs just cutting a hole into the LP's pipe?

The pipe isn't big enough and if you connected the coal stove into that horizontal section fly ash could build up and cause flue gasses to leak into the house.
rockwood
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Stokermatic coal furnace
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Rockwood Stoveworks Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: Malleable/Monarch Range
Coal Size/Type: Soft coal: Lump and stoker (slack coal)

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Wallknight On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:01 am

Surdiac vented out the window to a metal chimney which is now gone. Power vent would not have clearances in that location.

Boiler will still be in use to supplement, but hopefully that will be minimal. In fact, if all goes well, the LP would only be in use when we are out of town, which is when the coal will be off anyway.

If ash build up is the only issue, cant I just clean it out occasionally and have CO detectors everywhere?

BTW- that pipe is probably 8". Definitely larger than the Alaska exhaust.
Wallknight
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kast Console II

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: coal berner On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:36 pm

coalkirk wrote:
lowfog01 wrote:
Berlin wrote:well, I disagree lisa. Regardless, what the OP's trying to do will cause no fire hazard or risk of loss. It can be done safely without blindly following code.


Ok. why are we still discussing this? We have different points of view, big deal. I thought the idea was to hear all the options. It's not the first time people disagreed with me nor will it be the last. Being different makes the world interesting. Take care, Lisa


It can be done safely if nothing goes wrong. Things always seem to go wrong. Insurance companies are not going to gladly pay out a claim without an investigation. And they are looking for any reason to say it's not covered. I wouldn't be so worried about a fire from the shared flue proposed as much as I would spilling flue gases and CO in the event the chimney becomes somehow obstructed. The boilers draft hood would be the easiest way for flue gases to escape in that case. Also as already stated, that vent is too close to the wood above.

I assume you are talking about a stoker boiler? Once you start using it you will very likley find you don't need to keep the propane boiler running. Why not just disconnect the propane boilers vent pipe and turn off the gas? If you are going away, turn off the stoker and reconnect the propane boilers vent pipe. Unless you go away alot, no big deal, 5 minute job. You don't need a power venter and you won't gas yourself.

Terry it is a stoker stove Alaska kast console II
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: coal berner On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:44 pm

Wall Knight wrote:Surdiac vented out the window to a metal chimney which is now gone. Power vent would not have clearances in that location.

Boiler will still be in use to supplement, but hopefully that will be minimal. In fact, if all goes well, the LP would only be in use when we are out of town, which is when the coal will be off anyway.

If ash build up is the only issue, cant I just clean it out occasionally and have CO detectors everywhere?

BTW- that pipe is probably 8". Definitely larger than the Alaska exhaust.

Alaska is 6 " stove pipe Propane looks to be a 8" pipe Here is a used power venter have the price of new one probably will be the easiest cheapest & safest way to go why is there not enough clearance in the old stove location
coal berner
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1986 Electric Furnace Man 520 DF
Stove/Furnace Make: Electric Furnace Man
Stove/Furnace Model: DF520

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Wallknight On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:12 pm

Power Vent is NOT an option. End of story.

What I still need to understand is the physics of why both cant be on that chimney. And why the coal must be on top. Makes no sense. I think yall are making this up! :P
Wallknight
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kast Console II

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Sting On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:36 pm

Read this --- understand this -- take a bat and hit your dense self until this sinks in

Your dealing with products of combustion from two Completely different fueled heating appliances venting to one vertical hole in the house and the connection as pictured is already in question as to proximity to combustible material -- "THE HOUSE FLOOR"

even if one of the two appliances is not producing smelly gas [that will KILL YOU] -- it still is connected to the chimney that is supposed to vent the POISON out of your dwelling and if it is not connected in the

Wait for it.............

Correct sequence of evacuation

as others have more patiently attempted to get into your THICK - o let it go

If not connected in the correct sequence in this NON CODE installation

simple

YOUR DEAD because the vertical evacuation path of combustion gas will not work correctly

Have a nice day

Your mileage may vary

Power vent the propane appliance -- vent the solid fuel naturally and live longer -- I don't give a rats ass is you cannot afford to do it correctly - if you can't afford to do it right -- frigging don't' do it -- period -- Did you come her looking for a non existent silver bullet?

you don't need both heat sources -- but you will want both and you will want both without 2 hours of conversion time because if the kind folks at the emergency room - don't want to let you go home some night to tend coal fuel drama -- you want the "power-vented" LP appliance to snap to attention and pick up the load -- without intervention from some well meaning neighbor - a befuddled wife or an inept 6 year old -- I have had the pleasure of laying back in my morphine stupor knowing the house will stay warm -- its not as good as the drugs -- but its enough

do this right or go to Yahoo groups and get some really good advice

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Can Stoker and Propane boiler share chimney?

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:09 pm

Lisa, I have no problem at all with different options being presented or different "points of view". What I don't like is for someone to be unnecessarily scared away from doing something that is not unsafe. It was acceptable for years to have two appliances in the same flue if the one thimble wasn't too much higher than the other (same story for example). It is STILL acceptable and extremely commonplace for more than one appliance to be connected to the same flue providing the chimney can handle the exhaust volume, and they burn the same fuel. All the concerns about flue gas exiting the the draft hood on the other appliance could happen in most homes in america today - because most have more than one appliance connected to the same flue, often two gas furnaces or a gas furnace and water heater. these scenarios don't change whether or not one of those appliances happens to be a coal stove.

OP, if you want to do this correctly, be sure there is minimum 18" clearance from combustables to the connecting pipe (the pipe between any appliance and the the stack). Be sure the chimney does not "dead end" (be sure there is a clean-out located a few feet lower than the lowest thimble, or flue connection into the chimney; if there isn't one, put one in, preferably on the same side of the stack as the appliances will connect to). Keep the cleanout clean of debris/flyash at all times. Buy CO detectors (do this regardless). Be sure the coal stoker enters the chimney a few inches ABOVE the gas furnace. Yes, you should shorten the height of the connecting pipe below the draft hood. if you won't meet the 18" of clearance to the floor joists, clearance reducing double wall connecting pipe is available.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal