Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: lephturn On: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:00 pm

Hell All,

Benn reading on NEPA for a few years and after losing our home recently to a Dryer Fire and Getting ready to purchase another home with HW Baseboar, I would like to go the Coal Route. The House will Be in Greene County NY Between Cobelskill NY and Albany NY in a town of Rensselaerville. It is a 40 Yr old 3000sq/ft 2 floor 4bed room with a big great room contemporary design. Approx 380ft of base board 3 zones total with a older Oil WM mod. 82 Boiler 155kbtu.
My question is #1

Should I put a Coal stoker stove or put Stoker boiler In keeping my Oil boiler in as backup. I have read aboul LL,Keystoker, AA, HARMON ECT..But still I come awat a bit confused.

I originally was going to replace the inefficient oil boiler with a High eficiency Bruderus,Baxi or Viesmann oil boiler and put in a Pocono but still torn... I have room for a bulk storage bin of 10 ton or so. I would like to make my DHW or at least pre temper the inlet water to a oil fired 80 GAL. HWH. I also would like to direct power vent if possible. I have experience with HW and chilled water so installation sould be the easiest thing, Just would like input from Yallllll.


Thanks in advance

Jason Allen
lephturn
 
Stove/Furnace Make: still deciding

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:16 pm

If you have the means, a stoker boiler is the way to go. Keep your oil boiler for a backup.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: whistlenut On: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:17 pm

Coal Stoker Boiler hooked in series with your existing oik boiler. Don't go the 'High Efficiency Oil Boiler route unless you have plenty of cash laying around. Multitudes of used boilers available, or many new models available if you prefer that route.

Depending upon how handy you are, the boiler addition can be simple, straightforward and at a fair price.

Understand that you need to do a heat loss estimate before going wild in the btu department.
From the size of the home you mention, if would be about 130 to 160K unless you have 10 teenagers.....etc.

Axeman Anderson, AHS, Coal Jack, EFM, Gentleman Janitor, Harman. Keystoker, Leisure Line, Van Wert to mention a few....
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:10 am

I'd do a boiler. Whistlebut said it all. I would add: You don't want to do a power venter with a coal boiler. If you go with a stoker stove a direct vent is OK, but a power vent on a boiler isn't a good idea.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:16 am

Freddy wrote:I'd do a boiler. Whistlebut said it all. I would add: You don't want to do a power venter with a coal boiler. If you go with a stoker stove a direct vent is OK, but a power vent on a boiler isn't a good idea.


:idea: Power venting the existing oil boiler and using the chimney for the coal unit might be useful.

Jason, did the previous owners give you any fuel records? That is a big house, given its age...wouldn't surprise me if it burned ~1500-1800 gallons per year. You will get a very fast return on a coal boiler, and you can certainly heat your domestic hot water as well. I run an EFM 520 in my house, and the 30 year old Weil McLain still sits there as a backup.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: lephturn On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:39 am

Thanks for the replies.. Working for Johnson Controls for 15yrs in the Digital control, Chilled Water , large Steam boiler and piping areas....................... the implementation should be fairly easy except for the learning curve of coal.... DID a heat loss calc this morning while the home inspector was doing the well test and I am in the 90-110k range and another 35k when I finish the basement and do a sun porch. 150k would do

I would like the boiler route. Either a indirect h/w storage tank or even a DHW coil if need be. The seller gave me her oil useage from the last 8 years and she burned on avg 1190 gallons a year. The home does get a lot of sun that helps in that dept. Having 2 children and now a job on the railroad that requires a shower before and after work, I need to find a cheaper way to make and store HW other than a Conventional HW heater.

I will keep the older WM boiler for a backup. The chimney that is in place for the current boiler is a Selkirk double wall and logistically tapping it is going to be a chore but I will be able to fig out

OK now I have read lots of the whats the best boiler out there looks like the EFM,LL.AA all are good choices.

Anybody want to chime in if a interior coil or a seperate zoned indirect tank is their choice.

Again... Thanks to all who are helping rid us of the BIG Oil man.
lephturn
 
Stove/Furnace Make: still deciding

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:04 pm

Welcome to the forum. Go with an indirect hot water heater. Look carefully at the internal heat exchanger construction. Various ways to do it. I have a Weil Mclain. Stainless tank within a slightly larger steel tank. Run boiler water between the two.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:37 pm

We have an indirect, but it's only because there's no place for a coil in the boiler. In our last house we had essentially infinite DHW from a coil in an EFM stoker boiler. To me, the indirect adds cost and complexity with no discernible benefit. It's an unnecessary middleman in the production of DHW and I'd trade mine for a coil if I could.

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: BENAHSMAN On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:01 pm

Ben from Alternate Heating Systems... Give me a call and I will be glad to help you out. 717-261-5506.
BENAHSMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: ALTERNATE HEATING SYSTEMS

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:27 pm

lephturn wrote:OK now I have read lots of the whats the best boiler out there looks like the EFM,LL.AA all are good choices.


You will get no consensus on what is "the best boiler". Each brand has its own following, and there are pros & cons for each. I run an EFM, and I am extremely satisfied with it. I like the quiet operation, adjustable btu output, ground level bin, and non-sensitivity to outfires.

lephturn wrote:I would like the boiler route. Either a indirect h/w storage tank or even a DHW coil if need be. The seller gave me her oil useage from the last 8 years and she burned on avg 1190 gallons a year. The home does get a lot of sun that helps in that dept. Having 2 children and now a job on the railroad that requires a shower before and after work, I need to find a cheaper way to make and store HW other than a Conventional HW heater.


I think 1200 gallons per year is very reasonable for a house that size...especially if that includes domestic hot water. Hopefully she didn't have two of the zones set on 55 and the other on 62. :down:

As for the domestic water...you will certainly get different opinions on if a tankless coil is the way to go. My answer is..."it depends". Please describe your hot water usage patterns, if the house is on a well, hard water, etc etc.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: lephturn On: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:36 pm

Hello Again,


Ben .. The kids plus myself take showers at Nite b4 bed, My wife and I take one in the morning. every 2 days dishes and weekly Dog washes ( 2 Pugs) . The The house is on a well.... NON Sulphur but do not know the particulars yet.. Will Know After a water test... The Shower nozzles and toilet inners show a little sign of white Scale and a Reddish Iron Scale but time and test will tell. The owner said she was old school 70 during the day and 55 at night. By the looks of the old fashion T87 Mercury T stats with a sharpie mark D for day and N for Nite approx on those numbers ... I believe her. The Hot water was from a 40yr old Electric HWH.. OUCH!!!! It will not be there on Day 2 of ownership.

Did get good news today.. The Insurance check is cut and sending out today for out burnt home... Hope to close in 2-3 weeks on the new home and get right to work on our heating system.


Rob.. I will Call you shortly....


Gonna design on paper... my 12ton storage bin this weekend.
lephturn
 
Stove/Furnace Make: still deciding

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:47 am

lephturn wrote:The kids plus myself take showers at Nite b4 bed, My wife and I take one in the morning. every 2 days dishes and weekly Dog washes ( 2 Pugs) . The The house is on a well.... NON Sulphur but do not know the particulars yet.. Will Know After a water test... The Shower nozzles and toilet inners show a little sign of white Scale and a Reddish Iron Scale but time and test will tell. The owner said she was old school 70 during the day and 55 at night. By the looks of the old fashion T87 Mercury T stats with a sharpie mark D for day and N for Nite approx on those numbers ... I believe her. The Hot water was from a 40yr old Electric HWH.. OUCH!!!! It will not be there on Day 2 of ownership.


It sounds like you use your fair share of hot water, but the question is...do you ever try to take multiple showers at once? (or shower with the dishwasher running, etc). If you just do one thing at a time, a tankless should do the job just fine. If you frequently have more than one "draw" on hot water at the time time, I encourage you to either use a tankless coil with 3/4" tappings, or make the jump to an indirect hot water heater. Another option is to use the tankless with some sort of storage. Take a look at these pictures: Pictures Of Your Boiler The man that posted them uses an electric hot water heater with an aquastat and circulator...the water in the tank is circulated through the tankless coil in the boiler as needed. This kind of setup has a few advantages over a stand-alone tankless: 1. You have 3/4" tappings on the tank. 2. You don't need to keep the boiler as hot. 3. You can use the electric elements to make hot water when the boiler is down for service.

Regardless of how you intend to produce hot water, you definitely need to get the water tested and plan on treating it as necessary. Tankless coils DO NOT LIKE hard water, and the performance will quickly fade as the coil builds up with deposits. Indirects are less sensative to this, but it is still a problem.

While you are looking at the water system, check the air pressure in the pressure tank, check the pressure switch, etc etc. These things are often neglected.

Lastly, I know of someone running an S260 in Cobleskil. If you would like to see their boiler in action I should be able to dig up their phone number.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: ValterBorges On: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:33 am

This is my setup too and I can confirm it works well.

Salt Softener Resin/Brine
Looks something like this:
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00064028/k-G ... 2BFeed&kw={keyword}&gclid=CLu005G0lasCFUOo4Aodqk6nxA

S260 with Domestic Coil
http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/CoalBurners.aspx

Electric Water Heater for indirect, aquastat turned all the way down.
Works great, hotwater seems unlimited.
I can take a long shower right after the wife and never gets cold.

I powervented the propane and have it running in series.
ValterBorges
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AHS
Stove/Furnace Model: S260

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: vermontday On: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:58 am

I have an EFM 520 with an indirect coil superstore tank as a zone. With a family of five, it easily keeps up with multiple showers. In the summer the superstore runs off the oil boiler.

If you don't mind spending a little time each spring and fall to change the exhaust duct between boilers, go with the coal boiler to the chimney in the winter and the oil boiler in the summer. Coal boilers are very reliable. You have to clean the exhaust duct once per year anyway, so it works out well to change to the other boiler at the same time.

As far as boiler choices, the EFM has advantages over others. It is a bottom fed pot which means the coal gases will never be trapped from dumping too much coal on top of the fire, the auger is quiet and the bottom fed pot leaves the possibility of biofuel blends should coal ever become expensive.

Another advantage is the auger angle is very low, allowing the use of bulk bag skid feed instead of a coal hopper. If you have the cellar room for moving around bulk bag skids, it allows you to use more of your celler for storage, puts all of your coal directly over the auger without shoveling, and you don't have to worry about shoveling out tons of coal should you get an auger jam. For info on bulk bag skid fed see EFM Video and EFM 520 Install with skid/bulk bags feed
vermontday
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520

Re: Help Me decide Stoker Boiler / Stoker Stove and brand & Mdl

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:00 am

ValterBorges wrote:S260 with Domestic Coil
http://www.alternateheatingsystems.com/CoalBurners.aspx


The S260 is quite a machine, it's performance with a tankless coil is MUCH different than its little brother, the S130.

vermontday wrote:I have an EFM 520 with an indirect coil superstore tank as a zone. With a family of five, it easily keeps up with multiple showers. In the summer the superstore runs off the oil boiler.


What size is the indirect?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Visit Lehigh Anthracite