TLC 2000 - Controling the Burn

I was reading through this thread and saw two things that no one has addressed.

If your stove was sold as an air tight and you can't slow the fire down more, I'd say there is something not right. Maybe it is the ariwash for the window. But I'd think you should be able to actually put the fire out by turning off all the air supplies. Just my opinion...

The other thing was if the directional chimney cap would give you more draft. I don't really know the answer. But years ago, I lived on top of a mountain that was very windy. I would get occassional down drafts. Somebody pointed me to one of those chimney caps that rotates in the wind. It solved my down draft problem and I seemed to think if gave me noticably better draft. Hard to know though as I never measured the draft, I was burning wood and I lived in an area with a lot of wind. So for what it's worth...

dj

Thanks Dlj.

Actually, I was wondering if a directional chimney cap would relieve some of the positive draft I'm experiencing, as I seem to have a setup & liner that you could fly a kite in. Although I doubt it will, but I'm just trying to come-up with something short of modifying a new stove that will work.

Your point about dampering is one thing that has been nagging at me the past few days - and to me is also a safety issue.

I've read 100s of threads here trying to find information on my problem before I posted. One thing that has stayed with me that someone said, 'you need to be able to have a stove that shuts-down when fully dampered, for safety'.

Yes, I have a bucket of sand and a fire extinguisher on hand, but I'd like to know when I close the damper that the unit cannot self sustain.

Maybe it's just an issue with all of the volatiles in the Sub-Bit that allows it to self sustain, but it seems it should be tight enough to kill the air flow and thereby kill the fire.

I suspect another call to the manufacturer would tell me that the unit wasn't designed for Sub-Bit. But, to me anyway, it'd be like saying 'this wood stove is meant for hardwood only - if you burn pine, you're on your own'.

I'm not ripping on Harman, I'm just trying to get to a good place with this unit.

Do you have a standard pipe damper on your stove?

Standard Pipe Damper? As in an MPD, the circular cast iron pieces that mount in the throat of the stove where it connects to the chimney/stove pipe?

No, there isn't one. There are two pre-drilled holes in the throat of the stove that looks like it may allow one to be mounted, but I've seen nothing in the owners manual that indicates that one could be used.

I've seen a selection at the local hardware store for Vogelzang products, and the hardware store does have some other basic stuff like the gaskets, polish, fire brick, etc. It's a limited selection, but nice considering it's a small town.

Are you suggesting it may help control the draft...sorry if that's a duh question, coal has been so completely different than wood, I don't want to just assume anything.

Berlin wrote:steve, that "poor quality" coal is going to be a hell of a lot better than wood, soft or not. even low BTU subbit has a much higher energy density than any wood.

Yep I guess I overstated it, but I truly feel like this is 90% of Kielanders problem. He may be able to tighten the stove some and get some secondary air above to help with the burn effectivness, but reality is he's not going to get the kind of burn times we got with anthracite at a given output.

Kielanders, yes if you''re saying you want to reduce positive draft, a MPD does just that. Of course your barometric damper does the same thing but more in a different way. It evens the draft by adding room air, where as the MPD is a simple valve in the pipe. Both are effective in there ways. I personally have the MPD's in both of my coal stoves. You can buy the type like mine which have an oblong hole in the middle. This just always allows some venting even when totally closed.

I'm new to these forums and I'm a week from starting my first coal fire in my TLC 2000 but from reading everything I can about this stove and burning coal I thought I would add my 2 cents worth. At $80/ton you can burn three times as much of that coal than the high quality anthracite most of us burn and still be ahead of the cost curve. I would add the additional firebrick and set it up for the best burn with the least amount of puffback. You may have to tend the stove a bit more than you expected but every time you load the stove, think of how much money you are saving. I'll be paying $300/ton for anthracite and I'm going to save enough in my first heating season to more than pay for the stove and if this stove comes even close to what I think it will do I'll save enough to pay for the coal and the stove in the first year alone.

Welcome to the forum and good post. You are quite right in that assessment.

Kielanders wrote:Thanks Dlj.

Actually, I was wondering if a directional chimney cap would relieve some of the positive draft I'm experiencing, as I seem to have a setup & liner that you could fly a kite in. Although I doubt it will, but I'm just trying to come-up with something short of modifying a new stove that will work.

It has not been my experience that you will loose draft noticeably using that cap. If you don't have high winds then it might ever so slightly, but throw some wind in there and you may find your draft increases.

Kielanders wrote:Your point about dampering is one thing that has been nagging at me the past few days - and to me is also a safety issue.

I never did this, but did have a friend of mine who had a lot of draft and he installed two MPDs about 2 feet apart on his chimney. The furthest one from his stove he would run more like a set point. During the spring and fall when his draft was less, he'd have it at about 45 degrees, during the winter with full draft he'd have it set close to closed. Then he ran the lower damper as one would normally run a damper. It worked for him. We were all burning wood in those days and were using old stoves. I think he had a round oak... I was running my Glenwood, before I knew the delight of burning coal..

Kielanders wrote:I've read 100s of threads here trying to find information on my problem before I posted. One thing that has stayed with me that someone said, 'you need to be able to have a stove that shuts-down when fully dampered, for safety'.

I very much agree with this. Look, my old Glenwood will shut a fire down if I close all the air vents. It takes awhile, but the fire will die.

I once had a fabulous bunch of oak I was burning. Had a good 16 inches of solid oak coals in the firepot and went to fill it up. I opened the bottom door to give it good air to catch the next bunch of wood I was going to throw in, turned around to the wood box to grab the wood and heard a noise like a blow torch taking off. I turned back around to realize my chimney was going from cherry red to yellow and was starting to sag. I slammed the bottom door shut, closed all the air feeds and the fire just backed right down to where I could then control it again. Thank goodness that stove was tight, or I would have melted my chimney and probably burned down my house. Bottom line - I want an air tight stove where I can kill the fire just by air control...

dj

Everyone, thanks, these forums are absolutely great, thanks for your thoughts.

I want to be clear, I'm not whining about not getting 60 hour burn times. Most of that I thought of as marketing fluff achieved in absolutely perfect conditions. But, with only 12-14 hour burn times, combined with not being able to kill the stove at full damper, it seemed to me that there was/is a problem. Also, I'm not complaining about not being able to throw enough heat - heat is just a factor of fuel load over burn time.

If I have to tend it more because I use more fuel (because of the nature of our Sub-Bit) to keep our home to temp, that's okay - it's not the stove's fault. And I agree, at $80/Ton, even for Sub-Bit - for Alaska, it's an unbelievable bargain in a state where pricing on everything is often $$$. That's mainly a factor that the train dumps the stuff here in town for loading on the freighters to ship overseas.

...it's about the stove, its characteristics, and isolating that from my install and fuel being used.

My issue has been being able to 'control the burn'. Regardless of anything else, I expected a stove (for the money we spent) to allow me to determine how it burns, from start-up, to shutdown, I want to be able to control ignition, rate of burn, and shutdown. Again, I'm not ripping on Harman - just trying to work the issue.

Ok, here's hoping an MPD will fit and help tune things up a bit, I'm off to the hardware store.

Are there any other checks I should be doing to the gaskets on the door, window, ash door, and top feed door, other than the dollar bill test recommended by Harman, to see if there's a problem there?

Thanks again, everyone.

Kielanders wrote: it's not the stove's fault

Yes it is the stove's fault, or at least anyone who represented that stove as good for bit coal.

I would recommend against a MPD for bit coal. It acts as a soot catcher and will reduce draft substantially when a reduction is not wanted, such as reloading. When partially closed, it can build up with soot and plug the flue.

Either this stove was manufactured with the inability to shut of all (even closing down most of the air should bring the fire to such a low idle that you will think it's almost out) air or there is an air leak somewhere. Others with this stove should be able to tell you whether or not they have the capability while burning wood or coal to shut down the air and/or maintain excellent control of the fire. Perhaps go around the stove's joints, air intake doors etc with a lighter and see what you have that's leaking if this is the problem.

As was mentioned, to get a good slow burn with bit coal, use the largest sizes of coal, shut down underfire air, allow overfire air (but not so much that you create NO draft through the fuel bed). A baro may be used and some people here swear by them for bit coal, but, there are risks such as during a back-puff soot may blow out of the baro and cover the are around a stove; without a baro every stovepipe joint can be (and should be) completely sealed and screwed together to prevent a backpuff from creating any mess in the home.

Berlin wrote:I would recommend against a MPD for bit coal. It acts as a soot catcher and will reduce draft substantially when a reduction is not wanted, such as reloading. When partially closed, it can build up with soot and plug the flue.

Either this stove was manufactured with the inability to shut of all (even closing down most of the air should bring the fire to such a low idle that you will think it's almost out) air or there is an air leak somewhere. Others with this stove should be able to tell you whether or not they have the capability while burning wood or coal to shut down the air and/or maintain excellent control of the fire. Perhaps go around the stove's joints, air intake doors etc with a lighter and see what you have that's leaking if this is the problem.

As was mentioned, to get a good slow burn with bit coal, use the largest sizes of coal, shut down underfire air, allow overfire air (but not so much that you create NO draft through the fuel bed). A baro may be used and some people here swear by them for bit coal, but, there are risks such as during a back-puff soot may blow out of the baro and cover the are around a stove; without a baro every stovepipe joint can be (and should be) completely sealed and screwed together to prevent a backpuff from creating any mess in the home.

I have had a pipe damper on every stove I have ever owned. I never burned Anthracite until I moved up here to PA. I grew up with Bituminous Coal and used it well into Adult hood. I have never had a problem with soot build up because of a Pipe Damper. In fact the pipe damper has saved me from danger when I would load up the stove and walked away for too long. The worst thing that ever happened was a neighbor distracted me once and suddenly after running my mouth for several minutes, I remembered the stove. The stove pipe was so hot it was yellow and almost translucent. In other words it was a minute or two away from failure. I closed that pipe damper and the pipe cooled off instantly. No one can ever convince me that to have one of those is bad or detrimental. You just need to learn how to use them, like anything else; most times its not the equipments fault, but the operator.

Almost always Will, As a private pilot I can tell you that 99% of accidents are pilot error. Small things in conjunction with something else that eventually turns into a disaster.

I have been using a MPD on the handfired stoves I've been burning for the past 32 years. 29 years with the Warm Morning 523-R, and the past 3 years with the Buck Model 24 Coal Stove. There has been much debate on the use of a MPD. I guess I'm just old school and to me MPD's go along with handfired stoves. That is just my opinion on the subject.

buck24 wrote:I have been using a MPD on the handfired stoves I've been burning for the past 32 years. 29 years with the Warm Morning 523-R, and the past 3 years with the Buck Model 24 Coal Stove. There has been much debate on the use of a MPD. I guess I'm just old school and to me MPD's go along with handfired stoves. That is just my opinion on the subject.

I'm with Buck on this one. Although I'm afraid to confess how many years I've been firing up handfired stoves, it's more than the above number of years. I've also used way more stoves than Buck mentions, I don't even know how many. For about one decade of the decades I've been burning for heat, I was running about 5 different stoves a day. All have had MPDs... Maybe I'm just old school too, but I sure agree that MPD's go along with handfired stoves...

dj