The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:29 pm

kstills wrote:One should be careful not to conflate the rhetoric of the ruling party in Iran with the feelings of the people of Iran.

They are at odds with each other.

Iran is a great case for moving slowly and behind to scenes to allow the natural human tendency to rebel against oppression to run it's course. Becoming overly belligerent could turn an otherwise friendly populace into a nationalistic force that would willingly carry out the admittedly warlike policies of the ruling party.

I'm not advocating a do nothing approach, however the target of our retaliation should be a part of their government that the people hate.

And a target like that should be easy to find. :)


Good advice. One tends to forget that Iran is a country that was once more free and open. Women had upward mobility. People had more freedom of all kinds. It was almost like the west. There were many people who loved the shah for westernizing and secularizing their culture, but like most monarchies, they can be brutal to the opposition. Cultural forces drove the Shah out. It was unusual that a modernized country was replaced by a theocracy. Many educated people who enjoyed the classical liberal freedoms under the Shah are disenchanted under theocratic rule while the common Islamic man is happy to have the secular and political influence of the west gone. The country is still divided.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:38 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
Good advice. One tends to forget that Iran is a country that was once more free and open. Women had upward mobility. People had more freedom of all kinds. It was almost like the west. There were many people who loved the shah for westernizing and secularizing their culture, but like most monarchies, they can be brutal to the opposition. Cultural forces drove the Shah out. It was unusual that a modernized country was replaced by a theocracy. Many educated people who enjoyed the classical liberal freedoms under the Shah are disenchanted under theocratic rule while the common Islamic man is happy to have the secular and political influence of the west gone. The country is still divided.



http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:17 pm

jpete wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:
Good advice. One tends to forget that Iran is a country that was once more free and open. Women had upward mobility. People had more freedom of all kinds. It was almost like the west. There were many people who loved the shah for westernizing and secularizing their culture, but like most monarchies, they can be brutal to the opposition. Cultural forces drove the Shah out. It was unusual that a modernized country was replaced by a theocracy. Many educated people who enjoyed the classical liberal freedoms under the Shah are disenchanted under theocratic rule while the common Islamic man is happy to have the secular and political influence of the west gone. The country is still divided.



http://www.mohammadmossadegh.com/biography/



Your point? That the Palavi dynasty was a bunch of bad guys? We know that. But which is worse?

My point is that it sounded like a great idea to drive out the Shah and everyone in Iran pounced on that idea. But, like all anarchical power voids, it was filled with a regime that appealed to popular demands using tactics that bested the Shah. Now the educated, the women, and the secular wish they had their former lives back, or rather, they lost their lives to a generation of brutal theocracy.

I am not making a case for the Shah but for shrewd US diplomacy.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:51 pm

It was US "diplomacy" that installed the Shah. Mossadegh was who the people of Iran WANTED. We decided they were going to get one brutal regime after another.

Keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you've always got. ;)

Everybody have their Selective Service cards up to date? :D
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:00 am

jpete wrote:Oh I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to have a discussion.

I forgot the appropriate response was "You're right Dann."


You should be ashamed of yourself for that. Typical liberal snide troll comment. You define troll.



http://zuccottipark-oct-11.blogspot.com/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:03 am

Dann757 wrote:
jpete wrote:Oh I'm sorry, I thought you wanted to have a discussion.

I forgot the appropriate response was "You're right Dann."


You should be ashamed of yourself for that. Typical liberal snide troll comment. You define troll.



http://zuccottipark-oct-11.blogspot.com/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


You're right.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:13 am

I was going to compose myself and edit that post, but apparently you live here 24/7 now, you've already savored the fact that you made me angry. Feel free to steer the topic even farther off course in order to accentuate your self-aggrandizement.
I'm sure you're looking forward to basking in your own self-importance in the moment that you throw your vote away on the old baby doctor.

I don't cause trouble but I get into it.

You might have missed this interesting link while you were composing your brilliant retort. There's some really good photos there.


http://zuccottipark-oct-11.blogspot.com/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
Last edited by Dann757 on Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:35 am

jpete wrote:It was US "diplomacy" that installed the Shah. Mossadegh was who the people of Iran WANTED. We decided they were going to get one brutal regime after another.

Keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you've always got. ;)

Everybody have their Selective Service cards up to date? :D



Jeff

I never said the US should install another dictator.

But neither can the US can't ignore them. Iran won't allow it.

We have been over this ground before. A nation cannot be an island. Your ideas will never be implemented because they don't reflect man's unchanging nature. And what's ironic is that you ignore the only man who ever made a dent in human nature, but believe you can do better.
.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:27 pm

jpete wrote:It was US "diplomacy" that installed the Shah. Mossadegh was who the people of Iran WANTED. We decided they were going to get one brutal regime after another.

Keep doing what you've always done and you'll keep getting what you've always got. ;)

Everybody have their Selective Service cards up to date? :D


Forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but when Mossadegh was around, the stakes being played for were a lot higher. No doubt mistakes were made by both sides of the conflict, however I don't think the idea at this point is to re-litigate the pros and cons of a policy designed to contain the spread of communism?

If it is, this could get ugly.... :lol:

There is plenty of good will available for use by the US in it's search for a solution to the Iranian regime, right inside Iran. We need to work with those folks, not alienate them.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:16 pm

Dann757 wrote:I was going to compose myself and edit that post, but apparently you live here 24/7 now, you've already savored the fact that you made me angry. Feel free to steer the topic even farther off course in order to accentuate your self-aggrandizement.
I'm sure you're looking forward to basking in your own self-importance in the moment that you throw your vote away on the old baby doctor.

I don't cause trouble but I get into it.

You might have missed this interesting link while you were composing your brilliant retort. There's some really good photos there.


http://zuccottipark-oct-11.blogspot.com/
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


A bunch of morons making a mess. What else am I supposed to see?

As far as "throwing away" my vote....I never worry about that.

"Always vote for principle,
though you may vote alone,
and you may cherish the sweetest reflection
that your vote is never lost." --John Quincy Adams
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:40 pm

kstills wrote:There is plenty of good will available for use by the US in it's search for a solution to the Iranian regime, right inside Iran. We need to work with those folks, not alienate them.

I think you are right but how to accomplish this while still minimizing the nuclear danger.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: kstills On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:40 pm

franco b wrote:
kstills wrote:There is plenty of good will available for use by the US in it's search for a solution to the Iranian regime, right inside Iran. We need to work with those folks, not alienate them.

I think you are right but how to accomplish this while still minimizing the nuclear danger.


The nuclear danger exists more for Iran's neighbors than it does for the US, I'm thinking. Iran has regional aspirations, I believe they realize any confrontation with the US (nuclear, that is, either overt or through proxies) would result in unacceptable losses to their country. Maybe not, but I don't think they are completely crazy.

So we have to provide a shield for our (erstwhile) allies in the region, while co-ordinating with them a response to the growing nuclear threat that Iran poses...to them.

I think time and containment resolve this issue more than bellicosity and confrontation. A surgical strike here and there may be required, but working behind the scenes bears more fruit and loses less goodwill overall. IMHO.
kstills
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:05 pm

WW III here we come!
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: kstills On: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:08 am

jpete wrote:WW III here we come!



That potential exists, however not from any 'big power' manuevers.

The flash points atm (and there may be others) are between Turkey and Iran, as both jockey for position in the ME. Given the inherent instability of that region and the historical animosities coupled with the breakdown in several of those societies (Egypt being the most worrisome because of it's need to import food) you have a 'balkans' type situation brewing.

I don't think the Euros would avoid getting involved, if the oil supplies are threatened.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:45 am

Can't go to war with Iran, thats not the way we do things, we only attack countries to make money. Some Americans are already making money off of Iran. http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/10 ... -koch-iran
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