The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:00 pm

I want to commend Dann757 on a fine post that pointed out that wealth is created only by talent. Wealth is NOT necessarily money, but best represented by resources and talent combined. True production only comes from man and the earth. A redistribution of wealth is the theft of talent. But really, can talent be stolen? No! But the representation of it can. That is money. In reality, true wealth cannot be redistributed. In a free society, if all the wealth of the society were distributed equally, eventually the talented will have more of it than the untalented. Only in an oppressive and totalitarian regime can wealth be re-distributed.

In short, talent = wealth and no talent = no wealth. Redistributing wealth is not a virtue because it requires force to relieve one of their property. In a free society, The redistribution of wealth to equalize differences in talent is a vice and the hallmark of a totalitarian regime. Avoid it at all costs.
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:04 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:I want to commend Dann757 on a fine post that pointed out that wealth is created only by talent. Wealth is NOT necessarily money, but best represented by resources and talent combined. True production only comes from man and the earth. A redistribution of wealth is the theft of talent. But really, can talent be stolen? No! But the representation of it can. That is money. However, in reality, wealth cannot be redistributed. In a free society, if all the wealth of the society were distributed equally, eventually the talented will have more of it than the untalented. Only in an oppressive and totalitarian regime can wealth be re-distributed.

In short, talent = wealth and no talent = no wealth. Redistributing wealth is not a virtue because it requires force to relieve one of their property. In a free society, The redistribution of wealth to equalize differences in talent is a vice and the hallmark of a totalitarian regime. Avoid it at all costs.


Excellent post! :clap:
lsayre
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:33 pm

Allowing someone that wants to work to get a job paying a livable wage is not redistributing wealth. Welfare is & we are being buried in it on both ends of the spectrum, welfare is welfare if you are able to work & choose not to when there are jobs & if you are making plenty of money but have all kinds of bought loopholes & get subsidies it's still welfare. If your talent is cheating & deceiving then you are no more talented than the one doing the same on the opposite end of the spectrum, it's still cheating & deceiving.
Someone truly talented gets much of their personal wealth simply by exercising that talent. Making a good living off of that talent is great but there comes a point where how much does one need, what is excess & what do you do with that excess?
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:37 pm

samhill wrote:Dan, you still haven't answered just what the names & innuendos do to enhance a discussion, I'm at a loss to understand what name calling does to aid in proving a point.


Listen you old codger, you just don't listen, that's why. :D

How do you think the Civil War and all its bloody battles got started. Extreme differences in ideology I guess. Please feel free to post your left wing opinions and links on this public forum, but don't act offended when you get a heated response. Maybe you should be flattered, when you get the other guy hopping mad, you just won, in a way.

I percieve liberalism as an intense threat to our way of life, sorry if I revert to my animal instincts as a response on occaision.

Do you think all our hundreds of posts are unrecorded? No matter what information is presented to you, you don't seem to even consider it, just jump to a Pavlovian response every time. You are not innocent of your own accusations my friend. I'd have more respect for you if you just said, "I love to argue."

We're all being inundated with intense negativity from the media. We're being subjected to images of violence and turmoil on a daily basis. As Glen Beck and other patriots have predicted, the sinister and subtle anti-American forces have incited the ignorant hipsters into civil unrest. If it gets worse then everything I hold dear is threatened even further.

I have considered your viewpoint and even realized some of what you say is true. I don't recall you making any concessions.

Andreas Schmitz, head of the German banking federation told the Financial Times on Sunday that protests against banks were "a diversion from the fundamental problem: that we can no longer finance our welfare states".
Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:48 pm

Dann757 wrote:
Andreas Schmitz, head of the German banking federation told the Financial Times on Sunday that protests against banks were "a diversion from the fundamental problem: that we can no longer finance our welfare states".


YES, that IS the problem. And when the OWSers and samhill don't get it, it's INFURIATING! :blowup:
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:51 pm

samhill wrote:Someone truly talented gets much of their personal wealth simply by exercising that talent. Making a good living off of that talent is great but there comes a point where how much does one need, what is excess & what do you do with that excess?


There's a bone of contention and a difference in ideology. Did you put on an Obama mask before you wrote that? I believe our free market system doesn't limit what you can achieve or accumulate. Are you just simply jealous of the successful like so many millions of others? Who are you and Obama to determine what someone else achieves? I get jealous of the rich too, but I hold sacred their right to keep what they worked for!

I'm getting deja vu here because I know I've said this to you before: You equate welfare on the bottom to corporate welfare. Welfare takers on the bottom contribute NOTHING to society except a bought and paid for Democratic vote. Yes, I agree corporate welfare is unjust and the result of corruption and collusion; however ,corporations create jobs and goods and services. No matter what us monkeys screaming at each other from the treetops say, this crazy upheaval is gonna play out one way or the other. I just don't see how any left wing or socialist ideology is going to improve anybody's standard of living.

I'm going to work for a rich lady tomorrow, I'll finish fixing her deck railing. She isn't a corporation, but she has investments in corporations, like many municipalities and unions do. Nobody on welfare or one single OWS protester is going to enable me to exchange my labor for money, which I will use to support myself.
Last edited by Dann757 on Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:57 pm

samhill wrote:Allowing someone that wants to work to get a job paying a livable wage is not redistributing wealth....

...Someone truly talented gets much of their personal wealth simply by exercising that talent. Making a good living off of that talent is great but there comes a point where how much does one need, what is excess & what do you do with that excess?



"allowing... to get a job paying a livable wage..."? Whatever do you mean? There are no guarantees, samhill. What part of that don't you understand? Everyone is in competition with everyone else. A wage is what ever the market will bear and the laborer can negotiate. "Livable" is a subjective and qualitative term. If you don't think your wage is livable, look for a better job.

Where does the point of being "too rich" occur? And who exactly gets to decide what other people should do with their money in a free society and why do they get to decide that?

Is the late Steve Jobs too rich? Would the OWSers think so? Would they think he should have provided them with I-phones for $10/hour? I think they would have, yet they paid him far more despite their emotional stupidity because it was unique and useful. Jobs was paid appropriately according to the same market that appropriately pays laborers for their wages.

You baffle me!
mikeandgerry
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:55 am

M&G, haven't you heard yet, there are very few jobs. Lets face it the jobs that are out there mostly require either relocation, actual work or both. We live in an era with a bunch of spoiled brats for the most part, to many doing something physical is out of the question but most of what these brats can do has been exported off shore mostly it seems to India. We either have to retrain or bring those jobs back, as far as the job creators go as I have asked before where are the jobs? The lower tax rate for them has been in place for 10 years now, there are incentives for them to hire most of which get blocked but some get by, we should be flooded in jobs by that reasoning.
samhill
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:04 am

You also baffle me at times, I asked how much money does someone need but you go on about what a livable wage is, that it is a subjective & qualitative term. The livable wage is more or less set by studies & varies a bit by location but basically is the amount it takes to live just above the poverty line.
samhill
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:08 am

OK Dan, you being unable to control your temper at times pretty much answers my question about all the embellished name calling, no big deal just wondered if you felt it added anything or not.
Didn't your German banker (who just might have received some funds) kind of hinted toward the upper end of the spectrum of welfare that was brought out by the audit? I think we all know & pretty much agree about the lower end welfare but it seems that to some it's OK for some not to pay while others do. It seems to me that there was a lot of agreement for a flat tax at some point but they still want loopholes left intact, just trying to figure out why the right has such a hatred towards Old Codgers like myself?
samhill
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:06 pm

samhill wrote:just trying to figure out why the right has such a hatred towards Old Codgers like myself?


Maybe because you post like a commie half the time. You already seem to have it "figured out" how to get us conservatives aggravated! Like a lib, you post things as fact. Do you wonder why, when Jpete sticks up for the damn Japs in WWII? Blames the USA for Imperial Japan's war of conquest and hideous atrocities? You go along with that? I hope not.


At least you're not in support of the Marxist revolution brought to us by none other than Owebama. Are you? I hope not.

samhill wrote:The livable wage is more or less set by studies & varies a bit by location but basically is the amount it takes to live just above the poverty line.


What? What? Do you mean the minimum wage? I set my wage my damn self. I get the jist of what other tradesmen are charging. I know a landscaper that charges 30% more than me, just to slap marked up bushes in the ground. The guy is a predator and sucks up to customers.

I marked up my carpentry price for a real rich lawyer a few years ago, they never used me again. So I determined that I should go back to my lower wage, what my market would bear. I have repeat customers and my current price is very competitive. Once again, for the thousandth time, poor losers don't hire me. Rich homeowners do, maybe you just can't understand. Did you work in a steel mill for years and years, all secure and comfy protected by your union? I don't know.
I lose work every time a small job ends. Then more work comes along.

PS, thanks to Obama, my customer just got layed off from her pharmaceutical advertising job. She told me her company is insecure in their business dealings due to Obama's restrictive and constraining policies.

I hope you're just parroting Obama's ideology that there's a point when an individual entity has made enough money. What a crock of commie BS.
By that thinking, maybe you should give up some of your beautiful country property to some comrades in need.
Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:08 pm

Your right again Dan, all this started a little more than two years ago, before that everything was going just fine. Very few of you on the right have ever taken any responsibility for any thing. You complain if someone refers to what Bush did or didn't, guess we have to go back a bit more. You still don't get that for the most part the country is being run by the banks & big money not the Gov., it's just there to keep everyone mad at one side or the other while your pockets are picked & the country goes in the crapper.
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:22 pm

samhill wrote:You still don't get that for the most part the country is being run by the banks & big money not the Gov., it's just there to keep everyone mad at one side or the other while your pockets are picked & the country goes in the crapper.


I'm willing to compromise and I have considered your many posts. I'm just trying to live my life, as everything seems to be getting worse every day. Remember when you told me to kiss your liberal ass? We all get upset, but at least we still have the great freedom of unrestricted discourse!

I just caught this clip, I'm telling you, I don't know what to think about it! My brother is a Marine, on the other hand, the protesters are disrupting law and order and I think the NYPD has a really tough job right now.

Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:33 pm

samhill wrote:Your right again Dan, all this started a little more than two years ago, before that everything was going just fine. Very few of you on the right have ever taken any responsibility for any thing. You complain if someone refers to what Bush did or didn't, guess we have to go back a bit more. You still don't get that for the most part the country is being run by the banks & big money not the Gov., it's just there to keep everyone mad at one side or the other while your pockets are picked & the country goes in the crapper.

If only the government would nationalize everything then things would be just fine.
franco b
 
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:02 pm

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=356769

Another interesting take.

If I spent as much time splitting firewood for coal fire kindling, as I do here arguing with libs; I'd be set for the winter............ :)
Dann757