The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:52 pm

jpete wrote:The problem with the OWS folks, is for the most part, they want MORE of what I want less of.

They want more government, not less. They just want to be the beneficiaries of government largess instead of Wall St.


Agreed!
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:53 pm

jpete wrote:The German philosopher Immanuel Kant defined "Anarchy" in his article about anthropology in the chapter "Freiheit und Gesetz" (
http://korpora.zim.uni-duisburg-essen.d
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
... 7/330.html) as follows:

A Law And Freedom without Violence (Anarchy)



Hey Jpete, you kant define anarchy :D

an·ar·chy   /ˈænərki/ Show Spelled[an-er-kee] Show IPA
noun
1. a state of society without government or law.
2. political and social disorder due to the absence of governmental control: The death of the king was followed by a year of anarchy.
3. a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.
4. confusion; chaos; disorder: Intellectual and moral anarchy followed his loss of faith.
Dann757
 

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:59 pm

jpete wrote:Now we're getting into some heavy stuff here. :D

What is "truth"?

It used to be true that the earth was the center of the universe and the stars hung on crystal sphere's until a it wasn't anymore.

It used to be true that the leader of a country was appointed by a divine being.

What do we know today that will be wrong tomorrow?


Qui Est Veritas?

The truth is what the overlord determines to be the truth. It is best to be the overlord.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M


Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:05 pm

jpete wrote:And while capitalism may have been somewhat regulated and taxed throughout history, it's always more successful when it is less so. When capitalism is subverted through government intervention such as subsidies or prohibitive tariffs and debasing the currency, then capitalism fails as we have seen.


[emphasis mine]

I am glad you are not an anarchist as your statement implies.

I do believe that many regulations are helpful but most are not. I particularly like the dept of health with regard to food processing and other such regulations. I agree that much of it does need to go.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:07 pm

I was working today, putting in a little concrete pad for a deck staircase I'm rebuilding. I jammed the back of my hand on a nail and it punctured an artery! OMG I was really bleeding. I went in the customer's garage, put a piece of paper towel on the hole and wrapped duct tape around it. then I finished the pad with one hand. This is the work ethic I'm so proud of.

It comes to mind after seeing John Ratzenberger talk about trade jobs, that I was sent to woodshop in high school. I could have been sent to machine shop or auto shop. So I was thinking that must have had an influence on how I go about making a freelance living. I do a lot more carpentry than auto repair, and i don't even have my lathe anymore. There was an old German guy up the street that made a freelance living out of his garage machine shop. He showed me a set of six point expanding dividers he made for the military once. Work of art!

There's a whole generation of Americans with this sick left wing entitlement mentality, spurred on by liberal teachers.

Good work Mike, certain people can mock your writing, but they can't match it! :P
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Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:22 pm

Ouch. I hope you have had your tetanus shot. You should seek medical attention especially if you hit an artery. I wouldn't want you to bleed out in your sleep. We need you, your work ethic, and your posts!

(I am not joking about seeing the doctor!)
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:23 pm

jpete wrote:Then by definition, it isn't anarchy. :)



No, violence is anarchy. And, anarchy is violence. The two go hand in hand.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:27 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
jpete wrote:And while capitalism may have been somewhat regulated and taxed throughout history, it's always more successful when it is less so. When capitalism is subverted through government intervention such as subsidies or prohibitive tariffs and debasing the currency, then capitalism fails as we have seen.


[emphasis mine]

I am glad you are not an anarchist as your statement implies.

I do believe that many regulations are helpful but most are not. I particularly like the dept of health with regard to food processing and other such regulations. I agree that much of it does need to go.


The DOH and the FDA haven't done anything about(most recently) listeria in cantaloupes, or e. coli in spinach before that, and I can't even recall how many similar incidents.

Never mind all the "FDA Approved" drugs that they recall every year because they end up killing you.

I prefer a free market, constitutional solution where if you make a product that harms the customer, you might just go out of business. And if I can prove you had knowledge of the harm, you might just go to prison!
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:38 pm

jpete wrote:
mikeandgerry wrote:
jpete wrote:And while capitalism may have been somewhat regulated and taxed throughout history, it's always more successful when it is less so. When capitalism is subverted through government intervention such as subsidies or prohibitive tariffs and debasing the currency, then capitalism fails as we have seen.


[emphasis mine]

I am glad you are not an anarchist as your statement implies.

I do believe that many regulations are helpful but most are not. I particularly like the dept of health with regard to food processing and other such regulations. I agree that much of it does need to go.


The DOH and the FDA haven't done anything about(most recently) listeria in cantaloupes, or e. coli in spinach before that, and I can't even recall how many similar incidents.

Never mind all the "FDA Approved" drugs that they recall every year because they end up killing you.

I prefer a free market, constitutional solution where if you make a product that harms the customer, you might just go out of business. And if I can prove you had knowledge of the harm, you might just go to prison!


No, you just THINK you prefer a totally free market. You have NEVER experienced one. By all accounts I have read about primitive man, he sucks. No anarchy for me. But I will join you in reducing the hand of government to a finger.

BTW, courts and prisons only reside under governments.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:54 pm

The actual state of anarchy rarely exists in society today because most of society it urban. When society tends toward a state of "no ruler" (a power void) it is quickly filled by a strong leader who satisfies the desires of the masses. Anarchy might be able to survive rurally however I think lawlessness would result in crime and violence.

While I am sure that Kant makes a good argument that someone understands (I probably don't, but philosophers mostly bore me before I get the whole idea) there are others that make good counter-arguments with regard to morality. Morality, of course, being the foundation of laws, which are the edicts of rulers, or in the case of republics, the people.

No ruler (anarchy), no laws. No laws, no order. No order, no peace. No peace, no joy. Suffering isn't fun.

Morality is defined by mankind, with or without Kant, with or without a god in order to lessen suffering. Mankind prefers order, laws, rulers. Anarchy is always temporary.
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:10 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:
BTW, courts and prisons only reside under governments.


Again, not necessarily true. Courts, yes. Prisons? I have a privately operated Federal prison up the street from me.

http://www.wyattdetention.com/index.cfm ... le=History

How about we split the difference and go with freeER market? ;)
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
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Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:14 pm

I totally agree. Free-er is better. I just shy away from absolutely free.....and I KNOW that is the problem that got us where we are !!!! There is no equilibrium because most of mankind can't control himself. ;) I just don't know how to make humans into vulcans who can live long and prosper in an orderly, independent and totally free way. :D
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: mikeandgerry On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:17 pm

mikeandgerry wrote: Anarchy is always temporary.



I should add that government is also always temporary, however it does last much longer than anarchy!
mikeandgerry
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson Anthratube 130-M

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:33 pm

mikeandgerry wrote:I totally agree. Free-er is better. I just shy away from absolutely free.....and I KNOW that is the problem that got us where we are !!!! There is no equilibrium because most of mankind can't control himself. ;) I just don't know how to make humans into vulcans who can live long and prosper in an orderly, independent and totally free way. :D


You COULD have a "totally free" market if government did what it was supposed to do.

If a company made a product that injured or killed a person, then the company could and should be dragged into court. The CEO could be personally liable.

And that goes for things like pollution as well. If my factory emissions can be shown to injure people, then I have to clean them up.

I understand that the world would look a lot different than it does today. But it cannot be known if that would be better or worse.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: The "Occupy Wall St" Protest

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:33 pm

jpete wrote:The DOH and the FDA haven't done anything about(most recently) listeria in cantaloupes, or e. coli in spinach before that, and I can't even recall how many similar incidents.


What the heck are you trying to pull? The FDA is the entity that issued the recall. I don't feel like cut and pasting a thousand articles on the subject just for the pleasure of proving you wrong. :)

The poor unfortunate protesters think morality means the world owes them their existance. They will never know the joy of labor.

HAHAHAHa the Vulcans, remember they emerged from a violent and barbaric culture to conquer their emotions and embrace logic. :P
and who doesn't love T'Pol
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