Any Info on Summit 813 (Pictures)

Post by **franco b** » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 6:50 pm

echos67 wrote:I cleaned an area out in the basement today to build some walls and make a coal bin, my final size will be 8'L x 6'6"W x 4'6"H, I will have to look up a formula to find out how much that will hold but I can visualize 2 pallets of pellets fitting in there so maybe 2 ton.

At 40 cubic feet per ton you can get over 5 ton in there.

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Sat. Dec. 03, 2011 9:57 pm

echos67 wrote:
Yanche wrote:I hope you realize it's against the fire code to have a solid fuel appliance in a garage. It's specifically prohibited by NFPA 211, section 12.2.4 "Solid fuel-burning appliances shall not be installed in any garage."
I see it says "residential" garage, but no I did not read the NFPA code book. Thanks for the heads up Yanche.
Not sure if it includes shops that are not attached to the house or not but maybe I chose the wrong word calling it a garage, I will do some research, I am curious are these codes nationwide fire codes ?

Understanding the various codes that apply takes a bit of research and determination. I can help understand it in Maryland. It starts with the governor. As the top executive in the state he's is directed by the state legislature in Public Safety Article §6-206 and 6-501 to update the fire code. The most recent update is effective January 1, 2010. The directive is here:

.PDF | 169.4KB | State Fire Prevention Code 2010 January 01 Adopted.pdf

Note, it incorporates by reference NFPA 1 Fire Code (2009 Edition). When you look at NFPA 1 it incorporates by reference many, many codes and standards. NFPA 211 (2010 Edition) is referenced. It is the specific document that prohibits solid fuel burning appliances in garages. All the codes are constantly being updated. You need to be very particular in assuring you have the current version. Fire Codes can be viewed on-line at the NFPA web site.

http://www.nfpa.org/

You can only read them, no download or copy and paste. They are all there including past versions. You need to register with your e-mail address. You will get an e-mail with a link that allows access to the code book reader. There is a tutorial video here:

http://inspector911.com/free-nfpa-codes-and-standards/411

There is no code question that solid fuel appliances are prohibited in garages. BUT, there is nothing that would prohibit you from partitioning your garage into a room that housed the stove. NFPA 211 includes the design standards for clearances, acceptable building materials, etc. If you go that route make sure you get a building permit and talk to the inspector before you start building. You may have to remove your garage doors.

In general there is another possibility, a real long shot, that might work for a coal boiler. The codes talk about the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" (AHJ). This AHJ is frequently the fire marshal. The AHJ has the authority to approve "an engineered solution". So someone could in principle explain in engineering terms why your unique installation does not present a fire hazard. My opinion is, even with professional engineer stamped drawings this is a long shot.

Many have commented that their insurance agent has said it's ok if you follow some insurance company supplied rules or inspection. I have my doubts since the insurance company or agent is not the AHJ. The insurance company may insure your installation, but that's different than complying with the law.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 04, 2011 7:48 am

franco b wrote:
echos67 wrote:I cleaned an area out in the basement today to build some walls and make a coal bin, my final size will be 8'L x 6'6"W x 4'6"H, I will have to look up a formula to find out how much that will hold but I can visualize 2 pallets of pellets fitting in there so maybe 2 ton.
At 40 cubic feet per ton you can get over 5 ton in there.

Thanks Franco, I guess my visualization is broken thinking 2 ton, over 5 is a solid amount to have on hand, I better get busy.
did you figure it this way:
8 x 6.5 x 4.5 = 234 / 40 = 8.85 ?

Post by **franco b** » Sun. Dec. 04, 2011 10:44 am

echos67 wrote:did you figure it this way:
8 x 6.5 x 4.5 = 234 / 40 = 8.85 ?

Yes but it comes out as 5.85

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 04, 2011 12:24 pm

franco b wrote:
echos67 wrote:did you figure it this way:
8 x 6.5 x 4.5 = 234 / 40 = 8.85 ?
Yes but it comes out as 5.85

My dyslexia acting up again, 5.85 thanks.

I lined the firepot in the Summit today, I only went 1/8" to 3/16" thick to see how it does durring the next fire. While the stove was cool I checked for air leaks using a light bulb inside the stove and was actually surprised at how the seam at the base was open almost all the way around considering I just finished this stove. I sealed that seam from inside and did not see any others on the stove body, the doors on the other hand needed some attention so I used the high heat Permatex and plastic wrap trick.

.JPG | 42.8KB | Firepot Liner.jpg

I started the layout of the walls for the coal bin today so I can start buying more than a few bags at a time.

This coal burning can get out of hand quite quickly it appears, building coal bins, buying and refurbing stoves to use, ect. ect.

wsherrick · Post by **wsherrick** » Sun. Dec. 04, 2011 7:16 pm

It looks like you did a good job on the fire pot lining. Very good. Now you can run the stove without fear of warping or cracking your fire pot, plus; the refractory lining helps the coal to burn better since it retains the heat of the fire inside. This helps combustion efficiency. I always tell everyone who restores a stove to MAKE SURE there are no leaks in the seams. Sometimes they are hard to see from just a visual inspection. The best test is the smoke/flame test. You have a fire in the stove close the dampers and use a candle flame, long snouted BBQ lighter or an incense stick. Any leaks will be instantly apparent when the flame or smoke is drawn into the stove where the leak is.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Tue. Dec. 06, 2011 6:35 pm

wsherrick wrote:It looks like you did a good job on the fire pot lining. Very good. Now you can run the stove without fear of warping or cracking your fire pot, plus; the refractory lining helps the coal to burn better since it retains the heat of the fire inside. This helps combustion efficiency. I always tell everyone who restores a stove to MAKE SURE there are no leaks in the seams. Sometimes they are hard to see from just a visual inspection. The best test is the smoke/flame test. You have a fire in the stove close the dampers and use a candle flame, long snouted BBQ lighter or an incense stick. Any leaks will be instantly apparent when the flame or smoke is drawn into the stove where the leak is.

I went back and added another layer of lining to make it thicker for piece of mind and spending more time making it as smooth as I could. I will try the smoke test next time I start a fire, pretty warm here now at 60+ outside.

After I finish the coal bin and get some coal I can start working on the Glenwood

.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 11:19 am

Well the firepot liner product did not work, I used Rutlands rated at 2000* Refractory Cement, not sure what temperature coal burns at, but it looks like it got hotter than the Rutlands could handle.

My firepot appears to have Leprosy,
The left side shows what the entire pot looked like and the right side is what it looks like as it took a hammer to it. I will try and smooth it out the best I can and try burning again, but I wont be using this product again for this application.

.JPG | 31.7KB | Firepot Liner Rutland Mishap.jpg

I will buy this next time, it is an empty container of the stuff the StoveHospital uses, they gave it to me when I was there. I think this is the same stuff Steve Z uses as well.

.JPG | 51.3KB | Arrival-Parts Furnace Cement.jpg

The stove was toped off last night and burning well at 10:30 pm, this morning at 7:30am it was cold and I found this unburnt coal inside. There is not alot but I would think I could get better than less than 9 hours burn time ? The stove was only running between 300* to 350* at the pot and around 150* on the flue pipe 18" after the mpd.

.JPG | 44.7KB | Unburnt Coal.jpg

Is this stove just a piece of *^%# or is it operator error ?

Post by **franco b** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 11:31 am

The blistering of the refractory cement could be caused by steam if the product was not completely dry or perhaps the thinness of the coating could not handle the different rates of expansion when heated. If the mix was too wet when applied could also make it weaker.

If your fire pot was filled to the top then I suspect it died because it just did not have enough air.

The design of the stove is pretty much tried and true.

SteveZee · Post by **SteveZee** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 12:40 pm

I think Franco is right that the refractory needed to be "cured" slowly before making a hot coal fire. The clay I pounded into the Glenwood's firebox was dried very slowly over the summer and then had a couple of easy wood fire cycles before putting the coal to it. No problems at all with it.

The Summit is a small stove Keith, with direct draft and so will probably not ever be a world beater as far as time between loads is concerned. All you can do is see how it performs and decide if that works for you? I would heap it up as much as possible at night and bank it a bit, then close it down. I would think you could get 8 hrs out of it.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 1:02 pm

franco b wrote:The blistering of the refractory cement could be caused by steam if the product was not completely dry or perhaps the thinness of the coating could not handle the different rates of expansion when heated. If the mix was too wet when applied could also make it weaker. Makes sense, I started small charcoal fires between each application, maybe they werent hot enough for a long enough period of time. The stove sat in the basement and even though the basement is not damp it was cool and may have not let the cement dry throughly.

If your fire pot was filled to the top then I suspect it died because it just did not have enough air. I am using the flue from the oil boiler and the draft may not be the problem because it pulls very hard, I did reseal some leaks I found previously so I may need more primary air now if the stove is tighter ?

The design of the stove is pretty much tried and true.

This is a good and bad thing, good in the fact the stove isnt at fault but bad that I am lol.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 1:11 pm

SteveZee wrote:I think Franco is right that the refractory needed to be "cured" slowly before making a hot coal fire. The clay I pounded into the Glenwood's firebox was dried very slowly over the summer and then had a couple of easy wood fire cycles before putting the coal to it. No problems at all with it. That is nowhere near the cure time I gave this product so it is more than likely not the products fault, but mine.

The Summit is a small stove Keith, with direct draft and so will probably not ever be a world beater as far as time between loads is concerned. All you can do is see how it performs and decide if that works for you? I would heap it up as much as possible at night and bank it a bit, then close it down. I would think you could get 8 hrs out of it.

I will keep trying until I come across a better stove suited for a basement application that I can duct some heat to a couple registers as well as heat some domestic water with. Its getting personal between this stove and me now ! :box:

Post by **franco b** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 2:08 pm

Do an extra good job of shaking down before loading and see if it performs better. The low stove temperatures you experienced has me suspicious.

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 2:29 pm

franco b wrote:Do an extra good job of shaking down before loading and see if it performs better. The low stove temperatures you experienced has me suspicious.

Will do, thanks Franco
Possibly too much ash caused the fire to go out by not letting it breath and burning the remaining coal ?

echos67 · Post by **echos67** » Sun. Dec. 11, 2011 5:50 pm

I waited 5 hours and shook the stove down to what I think is pretty good. The fire was cranking already so I first opened the mpd and added a layer of coal, then waited until it started which didnt take long. I gave the grates maybe 50-60 quick raps back and forth on the outer ring. Then I filled half the firepot and after it was burning I did the other half, it only took a couple inches to fill it.
You can see the glow at the grates

.JPG | 32.6KB | After Shakedown Grates.jpg

.JPG | 43.3KB | Glowing Ash Pan After Shakedown.jpg

When I saw it burning like this I started setting the stove, I left it with the mpd almost closed, the secondary air open a crack, and the primary air open one turn. It is burning right along again now, but I will do this again tonight and hopefully it will last until morning. On a positive note the unfinished basement is at 83* and the heat is comming upstairs to the first floor.

.JPG | 32.1KB | After Shakedown.jpg