Newby Considering Buying a Coal Insert-Have Many Questions

I live downtown in Colorado Springs CO in an old 1900 house about 2700 sf.
I have a modern gas furnace to heat, but also have an original mason chimney fireplace with it's original 1900 open hearth insert and surrounding ornate side wood columns with wood top mantel.
I've been told the insert is made for coal because of the size of the hearth. I've burned coal in it and wood when I first moved in as a novelty. It didn't seem efficient with the open hearth so I haven't used it in years.
Now I'd like to lookin into purchasing a modern insert so I can actually use it. I could use it to help heat in the winter and turn the gas furnace down and provide an alternative fuel to my heating options and the novelty.
I've called around and we have a coal supplier that sells for $170 a ton. A cord of wood is about the same or higher around here and it's my understanding that a ton of coal produces as much heat as 1.3 cords of wood or more.
A fireplace is more of a novelty here in this city. Most people rely on their natural gas furnace which I think is still the cheapest way to heat although prices are going up every year.
It looks to me like heating with coal here would be about the same price as natural gas currently...
Here natural gas is about .80 per hundred cubic feet (ccf).
Some do burn wood or pellets, I don't know of anyone that burns coal.
It's odd because our electric plants are coal fired and I think there is a lot of coal in CO and WY accessible by train cars.
I know I can accumulate some free wood in the summer here and there also.

I think I can do the installation myself, I want to do it right with a stainless steel liner, but I have many questions that come to mind:

1. The old insert vents directly into the brick/mason chimney. The chimney travels into the second floor to the roof. With a new insert I'll have a stainless steel liner pipe which will prevent the brick/mason chimney from absorbing vent heat and radiating it into the house which is less efficient in that way.
Q. Is my impression correct that a modern insert would be dramatically more efficient then the the original open hearth insert?

2. How would I dispose of the original open hearth insert?
Q. Is it of any value or is it just trash?

3. The fireplace opening appears to be approx. 32" wide x 31" tall (I have not measured the depth yet), and the distance from this tiled fireplace opening to the wood mantel is only approx. 12" above and 6" to the sides. I really like the mantel.
Q. Will I have to replace the mantel because of it's close proximity?

4. The fireplace is on an interior wall in the corner. I have read that an outside air source for the flame is more desireable.
Q. How can I provide an outside air source for the flame?

5. I have found that coal burning is not allowed in many cities. From what I have been able to find, there is currently no regulation in this city. Q. But would I be better off installing a wood insert instead of a coal insert, considering the possible future ban on coal here too? Did they run out of the cleaner burning Anthracite coal that they no longer allow coal burning?

6. It seems all the retailers here only sell wood or pellet burning inserts and I have only found a few companies that sell coal inserts and many do not ship.
I saw the "Keystoker" but didn't find a local seller or the dimensions of the model.
I saw the "Harmon Magnafire" but the face is too wide to fit inside my mantel columns (and what are those ..looks like buckets on the sides of the unit??)
I saw the "Hitzer" has 2 units, this may be my best fit.. it they fit... how does the 503 model hopper work?
Q. Can anyone tell me what brand/seller they would recommend?

7. I have read that wood burning fireplace inserts with cats are not as desireable as units with instead of cats "second burn chambers".
Q. Do the coal inserts have "second burning chambers" also?

8. I understand that in a coal insert I can also burn just wood.
Q. Is a wood burning insert more efficient at burning wood than a coal insert?

9. Q. I've heard of making newspaper logs. Can I also burn newspaper?

10. Q. What are the trim covers like and choices for sealing and consealing the top and or side gaps of the insert and the fireplace hole?

11. Q. Besides the attachment to the roof chimney cover and the fireplace insert (with sheet metal screws), what other attachment points/support for the chimney liner pipe and method of attachment are advisable?

12. This turn of the century fireplace has a small square ash pit drop hole that drops ash into the basement where there is an ash pit door to remove the ashes.
Q. With a modern insert would this ash pit drop hole still be usable or just covered up?

13. Q. What are the efficiency ratings of coal inserts, do they vary much by brand?

14. Q. Is there cheaper coal then the $170 in my area?

I'd be very skeptical that is Anthracite, current prices locally are running about $120-$130 at the breaker if you pick it up yourself. Others in surrounding states are paying $200 + depending on the what and the where, some prices ar approaching $300 Getting it to Colorado would become unfeasible unless you were shipping it in a train car...

If its mined locally that would Bituminous coal which is probably not suitable for your situation. I'd also note the price is quite high for bituminous compared to some of the other prices listed here. On average I'd have to guess its roughly half the cost of anthracite. Possibly where you are at that accounts for shipping it in from other parts of the state.

jimtmcdaniels wrote: Q. Is my impression correct that a modern insert would be dramatically more efficient then the the original open hearth insert?

Absolutely, your average stove is probably running around 80% efficiency. Check with the manufacturer.

Q. Is it of any value or is it just trash?

E-Bay maybe? People are always looking for stuff like that.

Q. Will I have to replace the mantel because of it's close proximity?

I'd check with the manufacturer's specs but from your picture it doesn't look like it should be any problem.

Q. How can I provide an outside air source for the flame?

You don't need to but you would have to run some duct work to it.

Q. But would I be better off installing a wood insert instead of a coal insert, considering the possible future ban on coal here too? Did they run out of the cleaner burning Anthracite coal that they no longer allow coal burning?

I think that really depends on the supply in your area and your situation. If you fire up a bituminous coal stove and have neighbors in close proximity they are most likely not going to be too pleased. If you can find a reliable source for anthracite at a fair price I'd say go for it.

Q. Can anyone tell me what brand/seller they would recommend?

All the manufacturers you have listed are reliable makers, you need to find the product that fits your needs. They do make wood/coal combos.

Q. Do the coal inserts have "second burning chambers" also?

They are specifically designed for burning coal, coal is not like burning wood. It's a completely different animal. Most have sealed upper units with draft on the bottom that feeds up through the grate. The exhausts are normally found on the bottom too, these usually loop around the stove which goes into a flue eventually. Your typical flue pipe on coal stove is no where near as hot as wood, most of the heat is actually used instead of wasted. This is general description..

Q. Is a wood burning insert more efficient at burning wood than a coal insert?

They are not all designed to burn wood. I guess that's one of those depends questions but my guess would be the wood stove is going to burn it more efficiently for the same reason a coal stove burns coal efficiently.

9. Q. I've heard of making newspaper logs. Can I also burn newspaper?

I don't see why not...

Q. With a modern insert would this ash pit drop hole still be usable or just covered up?

Good question, most likely covered up but if it sits directly on top of it and the stove has floor, if not that is where the ashes go so you would still be able to utilize it. If need be you could always modify the insert.

14. Q. Is there cheaper coal then the $170 in my area?

For bituminous that's very possible, again I'd be skeptical of that price if they have told you its anthracite. Other than that there is no one here from Colorado that I'm aware of so that question will most likely remain unanswered.

Hello jimt. Welcome to the forum. I'll try to answer your questions.

First, you need to establish what type of coal you have available. I'm 99.9% sure what you have available for $170/ton is Bituminous coal, not Athracite. Bituminous coal is a much different burning experience than Anthracite.

Bituminous coal can be burnt in a hand load stove, not in any of the stoker or hopper fed stoves from Ohio or Pennsylvania. Bituminous coal gets soft and gooey as it is heated and starts burning, this jams up stokers and coal in a hopper. It actually can 'glue together' in a hand fired stove too. This often results in a 'bridge' of stuck-together coal over a gap with the rest of the fire several inches deeper in the stove. The fire can actually burn out underneath a bridged firebox.

Bituminous is also pretty dirty, depending on the coal available in your area. Most Bit. coal smokes pretty bad, has lots of thick black soot when fresh coal is getting started burning. Once the volitiles have burnt off, then other than the bridging, the fire is much like an Anthracite fire.

What this means is that unlike an anthracite fire, bituminous may need some 'tending' every few hours. This is much like a wood fire.

With the above in mind, you may not want to try to burn coal in your home. There can be a lot of issues with burning Bituminous.

Now I'll try to answer your questions:

If your chimney is in good condition, you do not need to install an insert. In fact a good masonry chimney with a terracotta clay liner is a better chimney than a SS lined chimney, it will outlast a SS liner by many decades. Get a good chimney sweep to clean and inspect your current chimney. You then can decide if you need or want a liner.

A good coal and wood burning insert will be more effecient than the current antique insert. But a chimney liner is for having better draft, not for keeping the brick from absorbing heat. The brick radiating heat into the room is an asset, not a problem

Your old insert has some 'antique value', probably not much, but some. Take a few good photos and take them to 'antique shops' in your area and see what they say about it's value and the market for selling the insert.

There are several different inserts available, if you buy one that is not too large, you may be able to keep the wood mantle and columns.

Providing a outside air source may not be necessary, depending on how tight your house is. Providing a devoted outside air source will reduce or eliminate cold air infiltration around exterior windows and doors. This cold air infiltration tends to defeat or at least offset your heat gain from a stove or insert. Providing an air source may be a challenge in your situation.

Regulations prohibiting coal burning usually apply to burning Bituminous coal, because of the dirty characteristics it often has. I don't think any anthracite coal is available in Colorado or Wyoming. So you may upset your neighbors with the soot and smell from bituminous coal. Wood smoke is not pleasant either, if the wood is not seasoned. You may have some very upset neighbors if your locally available Bituminous coal has lots of sulphur and volitiles. [smell and smoke]

You cannot use a hopper feed stove with Bituminous coal. The Hitzer hopper feed insert must burn Anthracite coal... Call Hizer for more information.

Anthracite coal burns completely in the firebox, this fuel source does not need or use a Catylist. Bitumious coal can benifit from hot secondary air, but this is a fairly sophisticated addtion to a stove. Anthracite stoves do not have a secondary air source that works well with Bitum. coal. Some Anthracite stoves have secondary air vents above the fire, this is used when wood is burned in the stove.

Yes, a dedicated wood burning stove is more effecient at burning wood than a coal stove would be. A coal stove is designed to burn coal, with wood as a backup, the coal stoves do not pass 'emissions' requirements because of this.

Newspaper logs have always been a failure in my experience. The burnt paper ash is a mess, and not worth the small amount of heat a rolled paper log creates.

Trim for the area around an insert is a product of the stove seller, I don't have much information here, you need to contact a stove retailer.

I'm not sure about the attach points for a chimney liner. Contact a chimney retailer/intaller for this info.

Effeciency ratings for stoves and inserts are usually 'bogus' numbers created for sales people. There are so many variables in trying to establish an 'effeciency rating' that the number is meaningless. The quality of coal, or wood burnt, the chimney's draft and design. The opperators techiques. etc.
From my knowledge, there has been only one true effeciency test of a coal burning appliance, it took two years to conduct and it was for an anthracite burning boiler. The study was done in the early 1950's.

Coal prices vary greatly based on the distance from the mines. Transportation is a huge cost.

There is a coal retailer with coal burning appliances in Wyoming, I think it is 'Pease stove and supply. I'll try to find a link to their site. I would highly recommend contacting them for information pertaining to burning coal in Colorado and Wyoming. It is quite different than the situation out east. Here is the link: http://www.peasefeedandcoal.com/

Whew!! that's a lot of typing. I hope I answered or helped you with your questions.. After contacting Pease, you may find that wood or pellets or corn burning is more practical in your area.

Let us know what you find out.

Greg L.

Jim,

Porter's in Casper and Riverton Wyoming sells Anthracite, but it is high as the moon at $540.00 for a pallet of 2400lbs bagged, that equals out to $450.00 a ton.

He says his stoves burn hard and soft coal, but the Harman magnum will NOT burn soft coal.

He sells hand fire stoves that will, but none of these are inserts, The vermont castings stove is designed to burn both.

Some people set these on the hearth in front of their fireplace and pipe it into the chimney above the mantle or if the fireplace is tall enough pipe it up through the flue.

Good luck, read this forum a lot, it is very helpfull.

BK

bksaun wrote: but it is high as the moon at $540.00 for a pallet of 2400lbs bagged,

Whats the point if it costs that much, be cheaper using oil, gas... Frankly I'm suprised there as many people using wwhere the cost is $200 plus.

I pay $250.00 a ton for bagged, and burned 3 tons last year. If I burn gas my bill can exceed $400.00 Nov - april so it is still a savings for me. PLUS my house stay's 74 dergees vs 68 with gas.

I guess it depends on your local fuel cost's.

BK

Hey guys:

It's all about the $ per BTU. Please observe the following:

Coal at 26,000,000 BTUs/ton equals:

Propane at 92,000 BTUs/gallon = 282.7 gallons = $621.94 at $2.20/gal

#2 Heating Oil at 140,000 BTUs/gallon = 185.8 gallons = $464.50 at $2.50/gal

Wood pellets at 16,000,000 BTUs/ton = 1.63 tons = $407.5 at $250/ton

Electricity at 3413 BTUs/KWH = 7618 KWHs = $533.26 at $0.07/KWH

The only heat source I've found cheaper than coal is free wood; and, even that isn't free after you add in your time and effort.

Last year I burned ~$3300 worth of propane and froze my butt off!

This year I will probably burn $2000 worth of coal and be warm and cozy!

Coal is the way to go!

I like being warm!!

--DW

Thanks for your time and knowledge about this!

I'm getting to a conclusion, a few more questions in my mind first.....

I called and yes you are right, it's Not Anthracite coal, it's the "soft coal" Bituminous..I read about on this site for $170 a ton DARN, they don't have Anthracite.
Hmm well is the Bituminous in our area really that bad burning, I think I have a 5 gallon bucket left from years ago when I burned it in the old insert, maybe I should try burning it again to see how bad it is coming out the chimney. I liked the heat and glow and long burn time. I don't remember it becoming glue together at all. It probably did smoke a lot when first lighting.
Maybe this is why noone seems to burn coal here except for the power plants. I hear people use come coal at night in their wood fireplace to keep the wood fire going while they are asleep.
Or maybe I should give up on the the idea of a coal insert and just purchase a wood insert. I don't think I'd do a pellet insert because from what I gather it's a more expensive fuel and then I wouldn't be able to burn any free wood I come upon in the summer and save and I don't like the idea that if the electricity goes out so does the pellet stove. I already have a new gas range with electronic controls and found out that if the electricity goes out I can't light it manually, those engineers made me mad about that....

Q. How can I tell an insert is designed to burn coal and wood? I guess there aren't many of these made because I think only saw one that said that.

Q. You don't recommend a liner for my mason chimney? Others have said that an old chimney opening is usually oversized for the low heat the new efficient inserts produce. That the oversized chimney opening without using a liner, attributes to condensation and soot and creosoot buildup. That the liner allows the chimney to be cleaned without removing the insert, where without a liner the insert must be removed during cleaning. That the liner provides an extra layer of safety modern times demand.

Q. If I do want to install an outside air source for the fire to eliminate heat robbing cold infiltration, do I need to find an insert that is designed for outside air source?

Q. I can't find a coal insert that fits then to burn soft coal. What's a stoker? It that the brand, I did see a Stoker Coal insert... Stokers don't work with soft coal?

Q. Soft coal produces slightly more heat than the Anthracite per ton correct?

Q. Do you think the soft coal at $170 a ton is cheaper than natural gas here? Here natural gas is about .80 per hundred cubic feet (ccf). A cheap cord of wood is about $200.

This may be my pivotal question on coal or wood insert:

I think I've confirmed that the coal is cheaper than burning wood here by a third or more.
But if natural gas is cheaper here than soft coal here, maybe I wouldn't buy coal anyway, I'd just turn up the furnace.
If that's the case, I think I'd just get a wood insert and focus on accumulating a pile of free wood in the summer and burn it in the winter on extra cold days and what not to help supplement the heat and reduce the annual natural gas furnace bill and still get ambiance out of the fire.

Q. Why can't coal be burned in a wood insert? China syndrome??

Coalman, even at $250/ton it's less than 1/2 the price of Propane which for me and many of my mountain man brothers are the only choices besides wood. At the current truck price of propane (tax inclusive) of $2.495 coal would have to be over $700/ton before it becomes a loser. Even us suckers 200 miles from the mine that have to pay twice the NEPA prices it's still a bargain.

Hello jimt. Seems you go a few questions answered, and these created a few more.

Bituminous coals vary greatly. Not all get gooey and stick together, not all have lots of volitiles and smoke bad when first lit. But in the Ohio/Maryland/Kentucky area most of the Bitum coal have high volitiles and a low softening temperature and high swelling index. Your Bitumin coal may differ.

Your insert burns coal in a loose pile right? If the coal is not confined, even if it does get sticky it won't stick together.

A coal stove must have a shaker grate, and an ash pan. A wood stove may not have either. A coal stove is intended to have a fire started, and the fire maintained by shaking down the ashes, and adding more coal. The fire can be maintained for an entire season with good coal and a properly designed firebox.

If you were burning anthracite coal I would say that you probably don't need a chimney liner. An anthracite fire does not make soot or creosote, only fly ash. Fly ash will not clog a vertical chimney. It can accumulate in horizontal chimney flue pipes and requires occasional cleaning.

Creosote is a by product of burning wood, not coal. Burning Bitum coal will generate a lot of soot. The soot will accumulate on the walls of a vertical chimney. So for burning bitum coal if your chimney does not have a teracotta clay liner, then a SS liner would be a good idea.

A stoker is a coal burning appliance [stove, furnace, boiler or insert] that has an automatic feeding mechanism that takes coal from a hopper and moves onto a burner grate in a controled amount and rate. Stokers only work with anthracite or hard coal. Bituminous works in only a stoker designed for soft coal, and I don't think there are any soft coal stoker stoves in production. Pease Feed shows one that is no longer available on their website.

Bituminous coal can have more BTUs per ton than anthracite, but a lot of the 'extra' BTUs are in the form of volitiles, which burn off as soot, getting a stove to burn off and recover the heat in the volitiles is one of the challenges of designing and operating a bitum burning appliance.

I personally would not want to burn bituminous coal inside a home. Unless you are really experienced with the burning process, you could easily soot-up you room or house. The cleanup would be a real chore. There are several Bitum-burners here on the forum, but they are experienced burners. Most with their appliances not in their living spaces.

I burned Bitum for about half a season. My boiler is located in an outbuilding, I had several 'accidents' with smoke and soot. I had to powerwash the inside of my boiler building to clean off the soot. Not something to contemplate inside your house.

If a wood burning insert has shaker grates, an ash pan, and firebrick, it could burn coal too. But most wood burners would not have all these features. There are stoves that will burn both.

I recommend that you visit some local stove retailers and see what they recommend, they know the locally available fuels, products and can provide product support. I think that a wood burning stove is a better idea for your home.

Greg L

Richard S. wrote: Whats the point if it costs that much, be cheaper using oil, gas... Frankly I'm suprised there as many people using wwhere the cost is $200 plus.

Paying $215 a ton will save me about $2,000 this winter.