how many amps are your battery back up systems

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:30 am

gerry_g wrote:Is it a true RMS amp meter


Mine is... I just got it recently. I bought a cheapie a while back & wasted my money. This time I ponied up $196 and got the real deal. AC/ DC. Made by Ideal. So far it's been quite handy. It's even got an extra readout screen on the bottom in case you're in a tight spot. Oh, and it came with a free "hot" sensor. Lay the pencil thing on a wire & it'll beep if there is power in the wire.

Patch wrote:Do you open the case of the inverter to access the on/off switch, or is there a set of terminals provided?
How reliable are the cheap eBay inverters? Ever have one fail?


Yes, I open the case & solder wires to the switch. I drill holes for the wires & add shrink wrap for extra protection going through the holes. I have not had one fail, but of the 5 I have purchased, two had lousy soldering on the inside, on the outlet connections. I resoldered them & no problems. All soldering on the boards was good. The 1,000 watt was tricky to solder wires to the switch. It had a tiny circuit board on the switch & I had to solder to it. It was tricky to reach and trickier to get in & out without causing too much heat. But... I did & it's fine.
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Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:07 pm

well i just built my battery back up. i ended up getting to 6 volt agm 200 amp hr batteries. i talked to someone from leisure line and a rv dealership (hobards i believe who it was) also recommended by leisure that builds battery backups for coal stoves. they both said i could use a modified sine wave inverter with no ill effects except for the coal trol not keeping time. so a got a triplite 750. i hooked it all up and the initial test was good but then the big blower motor on the stove kicked in and all it would do is humm and would not even turn. maybe that particular motor is getting worn out, maybe thats why it will not work at all off of a modified sine wave inverter. well i guess now i will be looking for a pure sine wave inverter with transfer switch / charger. if anybody wants to buy a triplite 750 inverter charger that was used only once let me know.
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:04 pm

Question for you guys....

Running my Pocono last night with a Kill-a -Watt I consume 185 watts on commercial power (at ~60 % fan speed) with a .55 power factor. The pf did not change much at any speed, slower or faster. We know the .55 is due to the Fasco motor's inductance.

Given that power factor and running on a pure sine wave inverter, am I going to consume more amps at 12 V than if I were to run a 185 w pure resistance (pf=1) at 12v ?

If yes, howe many more amps ?

Has anyone done this experiment using their ampmeters or expensive handheld ampmeters ?
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

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Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:51 am

Ok i just did an experiment. I unplugged the big blower motor from the coal trol control box and plugged it into the tripplite inverter and the other two motors of the coal stove i left plugged into the coal trol but left those to run off of a wall outlet. Now the big blower motor runs off of the inverter but is hum noisy but at least it works. As soon as i try to run the other 2 motors off of the inverter as well then the big blower motor stops and only hums. I have heard of other guys on this forum using this tripplite 750 watt inverter for all three motors so why doesn't my stove work with it. Is this a sign that my blower motor is starting to give out or do i have a problem with my batteries or inverter?
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: jrn8265 On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:20 am

Seems to me that your burst wattage is too much for the triplite when the three kick in. I have one also and find it does not burst too high!
jrn8265
 
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Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:31 am

Uglysquirrel wrote:Question for you guys....

Running my Pocono last night with a Kill-a -Watt I consume 185 watts on commercial power (at ~60 % fan speed) with a .55 power factor. The pf did not change much at any speed, slower or faster. We know the .55 is due to the Fasco motor's inductance.

Given that power factor and running on a pure sine wave inverter, am I going to consume more amps at 12 V than if I were to run a 185 w pure resistance (pf=1) at 12v ?

If yes, howe many more amps ?

Has anyone done this experiment using their ampmeters or expensive handheld ampmeters ?


The power factor and wattage are often misused terms here! The problem with electronic speed controls (and many modern electronics) is peak current surges current someplace in the sine wave supply. Inductance of a motor does not control peak surges. Also, anything other than full speed induces a load at a frequency different that the supply! A Kill-a-Watt really doesn't present any useful data. It is far too simplistic a device with misleading readings with switched loads (electronic speed control is an example).

This is almost impossible to spec since there are infinite permutations.

gerry
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: Electric, Propane
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line
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Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 pm

I might try and order another blower motor. I found one online for $110 including shipping. Between all three motors it should be about 360 watts so i don't see how it can be too much for the triplite which is rated at 750 watts max. I guess i can't go wrong with buying an extra motor anyways
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:15 pm

Ok i just did another test. I took my volt meter and hooked it up to the triplite to test the ac voltage output when running off of the batteries and it is only putting out 96 volts. I have about 13 volts coming from the batteries going into the inverter.??????
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:34 pm

atcfan wrote:Ok i just did another test. I took my volt meter and hooked it up to the triplite to test the ac voltage output when running off of the batteries and it is only putting out 96 volts. I have about 13 volts coming from the batteries going into the inverter.??????


ok disregard the last post. I spoke with triplite and they said if you don't have a special meter then it will only show as 96 volts for output coming from the inverter. I dug out another inverter i have and tested their theory and my meter shows 96 volts again for output so i guess they are right.
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:54 pm

If a motor hums while being fed power from a modified sine wave inverter, it will not hum for long as it will stop humming as soon as the insulation burns through and it shorts out, and burn and short it will. Instead of spending money on a new motor, spend the money on a pure sine wave inverter. The people that said the motors will be OK on a modified sine wave gave you poor information.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: atcfan On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:06 pm

freddy any idea why the blower motor will run off of the inverter by itself and not work at all when the other two motors are running off of the inverter as well. as far as the pure sine wave inverter, i plan on buying one but first would like to figure out why this is happening. if it has something to do with a worn out motor then i will buy that first.
atcfan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: leisure line
Stove/Furnace Model: pioneer

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:12 pm

atcfan wrote:Ok i just did another test. I took m.y volt meter and hooked it up to the triplite to test the ac voltage output when running off of the batteries and it is only putting out 96 volts. I have about 13 volts coming from the batteries going into the inverter.??????


A meter can't be used to diagnose such! Average, RMS or peak! However one can make some guesses.

The only true way is to use a dual trace oscilloscope, one measuring current and one measuring voltage. When the speed electronics cut in there is s significant surge which can overload the inverter's output

I SUSPECT the speed control is cutting in part way up the voltage curve and overloading the inverter/battery/wiring combination. How old and well cared for is the battery?

MOST (not all) inverters have a low input automatic cut off with an audible sound. Since you didn't mention that I'd GUESS it is the inverter with your specific load conditions. It is possible that it is the battery condition (poor) or too light a gauge wiring from the battery to the inverter. Generally that would trigger a low voltage shutdown if it was the battery or low voltage wiring. BUT NOT ALWAYS.

Thus I usually recommend gross overkill generators , batteries and inverters (all sine wave sans the battery). Internal battery resistance testing requires a fairly expensive tester.

I don't have the same inverter you have so I don't know it's particular characteristics and certainly don't know your specific conditions, (also inverters bearing the same model number may have design revisions).

That is why I generally suggest significant overkill for inverters or inverter generators. Current surge on modern electronics (not just electronic speed controls!) can create just the situation you describe, Common meters can's help diagnose the issue.

gerry
gerry_g
 
Coal Size/Type: rice
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Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:03 am

Well, a Samlex 600/1000 pure sine wave inverter in now in UPS's hands del next week. We'lll see what happens with the Pocono. If it won't start all three motors at the same time, try starting one of the 265's first, then the combustion and lastly, the 2nd 265 cfm.If the 2nd 265 won't kick in, we'll use the first 265 at a higher speed (or bypass the Coaltrol?) and block off the inlet to the 2nd 265. In these type cases with reduced flow would likely not run the hot coals near the grate end, kick back to something like 1.5 lbs/hr thing max and live with it. I'm having a hard wallet time doing $400 or so for a 1000/1500 PSW only for start up when I may only need it once every 2-3 years. Batteries will be 2-12V 27 size Advance Automotive "deep cycle" cheapie batteries in paralell a year old always on two Harbor Freight 1/2 amp trickles, they seem to have worked well on the trolling motor this summa.

The real deal (wish list) are two L-16 6V each, something like 440 amp/hr or if ya really have some inheritance 4 L-16's for a 50% discharge rating of 440amp/hrs. Just make sure your screwdriver you're holding does'nt slip out of your hands or you'll be breathing metal ions :blowup: and the battery from then on will be a POS.

Ug
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: gerry_g On: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:29 am

Uglysquirrel wrote:Well, a Samlex 600/1000 pure sine wave inverter in now in UPS's hands del next week. We'lll see what happens with the Pocono. If it won't start all three motors at the same time, try starting one of the 265's first, then the combustion and lastly, the 2nd 265 cfm.If the 2nd 265 won't kick in, we'll use the first 265 at a higher speed (or bypass the Coaltrol?) and block off the inlet to the 2nd 265. In these type cases with reduced flow would likely not run the hot coals near the grate end, kick back to something like 1.5 lbs/hr thing max and live with it. I'm having a hard wallet time doing $400 or so for a 1000/1500 PSW only for start up when I may only need it once every 2-3 years. Batteries will be 2-12V 27 size Advance Automotive "deep cycle" cheapie batteries in paralell a year old always on two Harbor Freight 1/2 amp trickles, they seem to have worked well on the trolling motor this summa.

The real deal (wish list) are two L-16 6V each, something like 440 amp/hr or if ya really have some inheritance 4 L-16's for a 50% discharge rating of 440amp/hrs. Just make sure your screwdriver you're holding does'nt slip out of your hands or you'll be breathing metal ions :blowup: and the battery from then on will be a POS.

Ug



Please let us know how it works out! If you can find one, an old fashioned non-electronic speed control on one of the circulation fans will reduce the non-linear load the coal-trol (or any electronic speed control) surges. Also, probably place the surge for that motor at a different point in the sine wave. If start up is an issue but running is ok, try using the trick of lowering the thermostat below the room temp so the motors don't start at max speed.

Just a battery note, BatteryMINDer® Plus 12 Volt chargers really do extent the life and capacity of batteries. They are both automatic and have a built in desulfator which actually works! Sulfate is the #1 reason (other than not watching the electrolyte level) of battery failure. (assuming starting batteries are not used for deep cycle)

Two models (manufacturers page, better prices can be found) are

http://tinyurl.com/yl6n7vv

and the higher capacity (more $) unit

http://tinyurl.com/ygfjfh5

Not that it matters much, almost all consumer "deep cycle" or Marine batteries are not true deep cycle designs as is the L-16's and similar batteries. Consumer grade units are sort of a hybrid, tolerate far more full discharges than a car starting battery. True deep cycle's plates are not damaged by full discharge unless stored that way.

gerry
gerry_g
 
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Re: how many amps are your battery back up systems

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:14 pm

Gerry, thanks for the recommendation regarding desulfidation!I need one of those!!! or two of em.... hummmmmm! Chrustmas is coming and the old lady does'nt know i bought the inverter. Te-he....

I'll report back on the Samlex, it's model # and Poke findings.

Hey, this is the fun of coal.....
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

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