Ash Pans

Ash Pans

PostBy: Kielanders On: Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:22 pm

Sorry to start an entire thread on this, but not seeing this addressed in any searches...here goes.

I now have two Harman stoves, a TLC 2000 and an SF 250. I would have liked to get an antique unit, but winter being here, and needing heat now, and Harman being about the only true coal stove being sold in the state, it is what it is.

What is bothering me, is that on both stoves, the ash pans are slightly smaller than the dimensions of the grates that feed them.

Despite your best efforts, YOU WILL get ash around the sides of the pans - and not an insignificant amount either if you burn any type of volume per/day.

Also, for those of us burning 24/7, it's no small adventure cleaning inside the ash box while the stove is running, what between overfire and dropping hot ash - even with wearing long gauntlet welders gloves.

What's the deal with designing items with such a serious short-coming?

Is there a good reason for doing this?

Are there any work-arounds?

Do all manufactures have this issue, both new as well as the antique stoves?

I can't imagine that something like this was missed in product testing.
Kielanders
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000 & SF-250

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:30 pm

Is the ash pan galvanived ? Could that be the problem, only so many sizes that are made in china, I don't know if any are manufactured in the usa with all the epa regulations. I had to look around for my size also, square # 0
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Berlin On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:03 am

I've mentioned this from time to time, it's one of the dumbest design flaws and also one of the most common. People rarely complain about it and manufacturers seem not to care.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

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Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:48 am

The ash that does not drop into the ash pan can be more readily cleaned out before shaking since it's old ash that has already had it's red embers expire for the large part, and I say large part, though there always could be one or two hot babies that have just falled right before you've removed the ash pan before sharing. This risk of a few hot embers suggests the ashes be placed in a metal container with metal top. Also the chance of getting some sort of CO from dead ash in a pail left insire is pretty low.

I would never vac these dead ashes for the above live ember potential, though pretty small.

This is the fun of burnin a hand fed, thats in part I went to a Pocono.
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Kielanders On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:53 am

AA130FIREMAN wrote:Is the ash pan galvanized ? Could that be the problem, only so many sizes that are made in china, I don't know if any are manufactured in the usa with all the epa regulations. I had to look around for my size also, square # 0


Yep, it's galvanized.

I've been playing with the idea of attaching some angle flashing as an attempt at a fix - I really hate to have to be doing something like that on stoves that each cost MORE than my parents first new car.

I suppose if the ash pans are made in China, I need to ask if the stoves were made in China as well. Here I've just been assuming that the coal stoves from Pennsylvania companies were one of the few things actually still made domestically.

Berlin, does the DS Machine have this problem as well? We tried to find an antique base burner, but no one had our size available now - the DS Machine was my next choice, but shipping times up here ruled it out.

Uglysquirrel, Pocono is another stove I haven't heard of to date. Does the Pocono not spill the ash? Do you know of any links that contain a listing of the active coal stove manufacturers? Or is there a list right under my nose on this site?
Kielanders
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: TLC-2000 & SF-250

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:29 am

Will a custom pan even fit? I know some pans are small because a larger one will not fit through the door! (Another design error).

Maybe you could use the Jotul 507 system.... the pan has no back and stays out of the stove. After you shake the ashes to the floor of the stove you use the ash pan as if it were a shovel. One scoop, done. Granted the Jotul 507 is a much smaller stove. It's ash pan is only 6 or 7 inches wide. A 15 inch wide scoop may have it's own issues.....

The other reason the Jutol ash pan stays out of the stove is that it is used as a shovel to load coal into the stove.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Coalfire On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:44 am

In regards to your question on DS they have the same problem, not sure how bad I clean mine about once every month. Most goes in but there is some that doesn't. I want all the ash to go in the pan.


Eric
Coalfire
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 96K btu Circulator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: traderfjp On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:55 am

I bought a slightly larger ash pan for my Alaska stove at Leisure. Maybe they can help you. I would say my pan is about 10% larger which gives me more time before having to take it out and dump the ashes. Every little bit helps. I had to change around the handles to make it work but that wasn't a big deal.
traderfjp
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Channing 3

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:06 am

Same problem on the Mark III. :x

Ash pan door is narrower than the area where ash drops and the pan has to be narrower to fit through that door. I would slide the pan to the right most side of the ash pan area so that only one side would miss the shake down ash. I would take the ash pan out, sit it in front of the stove and use a fireplace ash shovel on each side to scoop up the ash that missed the pan. There would be a little on the right side, but not much at all. There was two or three shovel fulls on the left side. Usually did it a while after shaking down so that the ash was cooler and less likely to float, make sure to turn off the blower so it also doesn't stir up the ash.

The other thing that was a pain, the bolt holding the leg comes up through the bottom of the ash pan area in the back corners of the stove. When sliding the pan to the right it would hit this bolt and couldn't go tight to the side. Also when using the shovel, it would hit the bolt and couldn't go tight to the back of the stove to trap the ash in the shovel.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: SteveZee On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:17 am

First off congrates on the new SF 250. That is a big hunk of stove and is a proven design that's been around for a while. They throw allot of heat and should really work well for you. I'll assume that's your new basement stove and the 2000 will be the upstairs living room unit? You should be plenty warm this winter Neil! I'll bet most times you'll only need the 250 alone.

The ash pan dilemma is a pain in the arse. I would try you're idea of braising some flashing to the existing pan as a catcher. As look as it slides in and out easily, it should help. It is a universal problem though. I shake down , then leave the ashes to cool till just before the next shake. I empty the "cold" ashes first while revving the stove up before shake and fill. There is always some stuff in the corners that misses though and after it accumulates enough I'll use the small shovel or scoop it get what I can of it. If and when I shut down, I'll take take the shop vac and suck it up. I have seen a dedicated ash vac with a metal can for this too. There are some on e-bay that allow you to use your home vacuum for power to suck the ash (hot or cold) into the metal can too. Never used one though, so I can't vouch. I would try your first suggestion or find a tinsmith to make up what you want. Lets us know how it works. If the door is narrower than the area you need, maybe hinged or folding flaps would work?
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: Uglysquirrel On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:31 am

Kielanders wrote:
AA130FIREMAN wrote:Uglysquirrel, Pocono is another stove I haven't heard of to date. Does the Pocono not spill the ash? Do you know of any links that contain a listing of the active coal stove manufacturers? Or is there a list right under my nose on this site?


The Pocono is a stoker that burns rice coal automatically, the ash falls in a ~8" width off the end of a cast iron grate into a ash pan. Not much ash gets beyond the pan though as the coal burns on the grate , it "spits" ash and after a couple weeks, you do get a thin layer on the stove bottom beyond the pan. Between ash pan changes I just quickly shovel the ash out with a tiny shovel everlt couple weeks. Hand feds need more frequent cleaning aound the edges for the ash pan to fit in properly. In my Mark II the limiting factor seemed to be that the ash door width is smaller than the grate ash drop width. Sucks. The joys of hand feederism.

I do not have a list of stoves.

Remember, when the power goes out, your hand fed will be hummin, my stoker needs my 2000i runnin at 3-4 gallons per day on Eco Mode.

Welcome to the coal forum.
Uglysquirrel
 
Stove/Furnace Model: Pocono

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:51 am

I agree with Berlin that this is a really inexcusable flaw, especially on stoves that are not a first effort. They just go on year after year with the same dumb design.

I have seen on some stoves (Buderus Juno) a sheet metal deflector directly under the grate to direct the ash into the pan.

The other problem with some stoves is the ash pan is just too small to hold 24 hours worth of ash. Some look more like a cookie sheet.

The round tapered fire pot design of the antique stoves was probably made to solve the problem of undersize ash pan, though on some the pan still looks too shallow.

This thread is one that has been needed since it is a problem that has not been mentioned very often and should effect the buying decision for any stove. To remove the ash is always relatively messy and thoughtless design makes it worse. I know I have rejected stoves for that very reason.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:28 pm

Bingo...
I have seen on some stoves (Buderus Juno) a sheet metal deflector directly under the grate to direct the ash into the pan.

But then ash will build up on the deflector...
Hitzer has the 3-sided ashpan...
Works like a scoop...
The DS Machine #4 has a raised rail under the ashpan...
Not too much misses the pan so maybe once every 2 weeks do I do sweep below the ashpan...
It is just a design issue...
Ashpan must be smaller than the ash-door...
Which must be smaller than the stove body...
Which must be flat steel to keep production costs down...
Deeper ash pan means a taller stove...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:05 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:It is just a design issue...

Sure it's a design issue but not one that can't be solved. A deflector with enough pitch does not get clogged with ash.

An ash pan door could be designed the full width of the stove if need be, or nearly so.

So make the stove an inch or two taller for a deeper ash pan. The Vig 2 has the pan below the stove.

The purpose of the ash pan is to eliminate the need to shovel out the ashes as was done in the early stoves. I think when a buyer sees that a stove has an ash pan he should have a reasonable expectation that it should catch all the ash, not just part of it.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Ash Pans

PostBy: g13nw00d-man On: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:45 pm

Last year I used an ash pan that was for a Glenwood #116 and was too small for my stove, I had the same problem. I had a local fab shop make me a new one with a lid for under $50 bucks and its perfect, I should have a nice clean ash pit this year and the lid will help with fly ash. thats the route I would go if you measure your opening and give exact sizes to you fabricator you should get what you need, unless your opening is smaller than the great opening. Best wishes.....
g13nw00d-man
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Glenwood
Stove/Furnace Model: #6 Base Heater

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