Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:10 pm

Need some insight on designing a pipe system.

I will be doing an Axeman Anderson 130 to H/X in plenum along w/ Indirect DHW.

I read and have Stieinthaler's book to refer to, just wanting to get some insight from those who have done what I am about to do.

I know in theory it's all just hot water...but doesn't a coal fired boiler, using a solid fuel, have it's own differences compared to other fuels?

I want Pri/Sec w/ pump zoning...2 zones.

When to get rotated flange and why???

How does sizing the pipe effect choosing the matching pump later??? Doing it smart...is bigger better???

Integral valves in flanges...is it worth the money for a do-yourself install???

Which by-pass...boiler by-pass???...how fancy or simple does it need to be??? how do you size it?

How important is it to keep secondary loops short...does it just come down to economics or are there other factors?

What do you think of 3 speed pumps???

What do you think of Outdoor Resets on solid fuel?

What other tips might you lend...what would you do different if you were doing another today?

Surely I'll have many more questions that will come.

I learned a lot from the books and reading posts here at NEPA but now I want to get closer to breaking out the wrenches. :D

Looking forward to hearing what comes from the great "Brain Trust" here at NEPA. :)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

PostBy: Rob R. On: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:39 pm

I'm not a heating engineer, just a guy that has installed a few coal boilers and learned some things along the way. Here are my thoughts:

I want Pri/Sec w/ pump zoning...2 zones.


Primary/Secondary is normally used when there is a mix of high and low temperature radiation (baseboard, radiant, etc)...but there is no reason you can't do it here...it will just use a few more fittings and an extra circulator.

When to get rotated flange and why???


You can use either style when installing new components...if you have an existing header that needs a circulator replaced, you just need to make sure you get one that is the same style.

How does sizing the pipe effect choosing the matching pump later??? Doing it smart...is bigger better???


Generally speaking, the larger the pipe the smaller the pump that is required to have a given amount of flow. You don't want to go so big that the water velocity in the pipe isn't enough to move the air bubbles. 1.25" will be fine for the primary loop on your AA130.

Integral valves in flanges...is it worth the money for a do-yourself install???


I think so, they make changing a circulator a snap.

Which by-pass...boiler by-pass???...how fancy or simple does it need to be??? how do you size it?


If you want to pipe the boiler in a primary/secondary fashion, I would skip the bypass. The high flow through the primary loop will help prevent thermal shock, and when the boiler is sitting idle there will be enough gravity circulation through the primary loop to prevent stratification in the boiler.

How important is it to keep secondary loops short...does it just come down to economics or are there other factors?


It is mostly an economic decision. Naturally the longer the run the more pipe you have to buy. :D A longer run of pipe may require a larger pump to move the btu's you need...or not, it depends on the load and the diameter of the pipe.

What do you think of 3 speed pumps???


I like them.

What do you think of Outdoor Resets on solid fuel?


Never tried it...I just adjust the aquastat on my boiler a few times a year.

What other tips might you lend...what would you do different if you were doing another today?


Pipe the boiler and zones so they can easily be power-purged from the basement...pump away from the expansion tank...use a commercial floor mounted expansion tank...pipe the headers off your primary loop so more zones can easily be added later...use "tees" instead of elbows in your flue pipe so it is easy to clean...and lastly, use anti-seize on all fasteners.

Edit: I attached a diagram that someone was kind enough to post on the heatinghelp forum a few years ago. You can use 1.25" piping instead of the 2" referenced in the diagram, but it shows you the general idea.
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Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: Rice/buck
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:53 pm

Luke D wrote:some guy named Sting will tell me to order the books.


Image[/quote]

This can be a very interesting project - always more fun if you understand as much or more than the folks you interview

here is a link of interest
http://store.hydronicpros.com/category
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
. ... 1002&qpg=1 it is highly recommended by another significant member of these pages - but I find it far to 'heady" for the beginner. But if your an engineer type - its your hook up for sure.

here is something far more appealing -- others call them comic books - but many more have found them exactly what they needed to get a great install

Here is the best advice I can give you - Buy - rent - or borrow these books - Sit down and READ them and then lets chat. This is likely the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on your hobby!

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Sup
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
... h-The-Flow
add this (maybe later) and your a jump ahead for wiring

http://www.heatinghelp.com/products/Sup
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
... riple-Play

Thanks for the space!
http://www.pvsullivan.com/Downloads.html
Download this heat loss calculator if you want to do the best job for your self - It will conclude exactly how big of a heating appliance you really need. Too big a boiler is a fuel hog -- too small -- well your cold

or

Here’s an example of a no brainer version:

http://www.builditsolar.com/References/ ... atLoss.htm


Unfortunately ---- NO ONE HERE (or there) can tell you what you need to know because every installation is different. YOU will need to arm your self with a minimal knowledge to know what [specific] question to ask. While the ones you began with above are fine - they are still to general - they can and will be misunderstood -- they all can be (correctly) answered by " It Depends" -- result= you will be mislead.

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas


Re: Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:01 pm

Rob,

Thanks, you weren't scared. You tackled each and everyone.

About Pri/sec, alternative would be, 1 circ. and then zone valves?

Seen something about rotate flanges and a reference to either horizontal or vertical mounting...didn't figure that out?

There will more Q's as I try to wrap my head around this.



Sting,

Thanks for your reply. I have already read the books. I come here to take that to the next level.

Let's Talk :D
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Tell me what to know when designing a pipe system???

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:07 pm

McGiever wrote:

Sting,

Thanks for your reply. I have already read the books. I come here to take that to the next level.

Let's Talk :D


This makes me pause with slight concern - as your questions should have apparent answers from the literature you already digested.

oh me -- one at a time please :?
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas


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