Time to set up the generator

Time to set up the generator

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:23 pm

I have a used diesel generator for some time, now I should hardwire it to my system. It will be over 100' from the house, would it work to run 12 gauge wire into my basement for the 12 volt start and the 12 volt glow plug on a toggle or ingition switch (so I don't have to go outside to turn on and off) , or is that too long a run for the voltage. Would it be better and possable to find a 12 volt relay for the task ? A friend is going to look at how to wire it from 3 phase, I can't make heads from tails on the wire blueprints. It is I beliese a 12 lead generator head.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: McGiever On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:37 pm

12 volt on #12 for 100'...no...voltage drop will be to much, I would say.

The trick here is that when you need the generator the most, your utility power is already off. How can you trigger the relay?

It would take another battery and suitable inverter back at the house to provide the higher voltage to trigger the relay 100' away.

Perhaps, boost the wire size up to like #2 (of the aluminum variety, copper is *pricey*) and see if the drop is tolerable.
There is math out there to calculate voltage drop in a given wire size of a given length...10% drop is not too bad.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:57 pm

I am talking of extending the wire that is already on a toggle switch, glow plug and the start side,running those wires into my basement, No way tied to the house 120v, just the 12v battery in the generator itself. I believe it would be a long run for 12v, and if it would work ?
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube


Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: MURDOC1 On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:44 pm

The amp capacity of 12 gauge wire @ 100' is 5 amps!!! That is based on a 10% maximum voltage drop at 100', but consider and if I have this right, not only will you be running 100' from the generator to the house, but then 100' back from the house to the generator, right???
MURDOC1
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska/Franco Belge/Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: S.S. 2/ 144.08.02/ Mag Stoker

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: McGiever On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:36 pm

McGiever wrote:12 volt on #12 for 100'...no...voltage drop will be to much, I would say.

The trick here is that when you need the generator the most, your utility power is already off. How can you trigger the relay?

It would take another battery and suitable inverter back at the house to provide the higher voltage to trigger the relay 100' away.

Perhaps, boost the wire size up to like #2 (of the aluminum variety, copper is *pricey*) and see if the drop is tolerable.
There is math out there to calculate voltage drop in a given wire size of a given length...10% drop is not too bad.


Sorry for confusing reply. :oops: Better answer would of been...

Will not work at 12Volts...too much voltage drop.

What do you mean by 12 volt relay?
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: 009to090 On: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:54 pm

McGiever wrote:What do you mean by 12 volt relay?

The only relay that would work would be a relay operated by 12VDC and switching 12VDC. Yes, if you hooked up these relays to turn on the generator controls, then run your 100ft of wire to the house to just turn on the relay, that should work. I'd use muti-strand copper though. Something like a 14ga extension cord. Not 12/2 Romex house wire. Try it above ground first to verify. Plz verify, this will only 'flip' the relay, and the relay will power the Gen circuit?
009to090
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520 HighBoy
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: DVC-500 x 2
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:21 am

Voltage drop is voltage drop. It is a value of resistance proportional to a wires length. This resistance needs to be overcome in some manner.

Changing the current lower w/ a relay, will still not get the voltage drop improved. Hence the viable solution is to raise up the voltage to overcome this.
This is why I fast forwarded to the new problem of scarce availability of higher voltage source than 12VDV voltage once utility power is off.

10% voltage drop @ 120 Volts would be acceptable, whereas 10% voltage drop @ 12 Volts is not. Remember the voltage drop is the same for both.
Only solution I see is to reduce the voltage drop by increasing the size of the conductor...#2 aluminum might work, #2 welding/battery cable is even better, but 200' of copper will be costly.

Bottom line, reduce resistance of conductors or increase the voltage applied, or maybe some of both. :)
Last edited by McGiever on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:29 am

I wonder if it would work with out adding a relay ? One way to find out. Their may be a relay their to begin with. Shure would be nice not to go out in the cold to start. I was thinking I have 2 marine batterys from my boat, tie them in series and I would have more cranking amps (off season for the boat) and run a battery tender to them for the winter, good use of the batteries and keep them fresh, and a 120v line for the block heater on the generator diesel (if bad weather is approaching). Summer time the batteries would serve another purpose. Now if I can get it wired to make single phase I'll soon be good to go, Also I want to pour a cement slab and do the underground wires. I also have a manual transfer switch and a 275 oil tank for fueling the beast. Just need to get R done.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:45 am

AA130FIREMAN wrote:I wonder if it would work with out adding a relay ? One way to find out. Their may be a relay their to begin with. Shure would be nice not to go out in the cold to start. I was thinking I have 2 marine batterys from my boat, tie them in series and I would have more cranking amps (off season for the boat) and run a battery tender to them for the winter, good use of the batteries and keep them fresh, and a 120v line for the block heater on the generator diesel (if bad weather is approaching). Summer time the batteries would serve another purpose. Now if I can get it wired to make single phase I'll soon be good to go, Also I want to pour a cement slab and do the underground wires. I also have a manual transfer switch and a 275 oil tank for fueling the beast. Just need to get R done.


Yes, there is already a relay...the starting solenoid for one example. Glow plug relay would be another.

For Remote Start:
If you were to have a inverter placed near and connected from the batteries, it could provide 120VAC even when utility power is off.
You would be able to overcome the voltage drop by 10 times the 12 volt arrangement, and not need as large of conductor size.
FYI; Series batteries give you 24VDC.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:11 pm

Keep in mind that I'm only in my first semester of "Basic Electricity" but I'm thinking if you had a 120V/24V transformer in the house, then you can run low voltage cable(less $$$) to a set of 24V normally closed contacts so that when line power cuts out, the contacts fall and fire the generator. You can have one or two deep cycle batteries out by the generator with a cheap solar panel to keep them fresh.

You still have to get power from the generator to the house, but you were going to have that cost anyway.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: AA130FIREMAN On: Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:46 am

A diesel will not just start that fast, I need to hit the glow plug 1/2 to a minute, that is why I opted to forget about an auto transfer switch.
AA130FIREMAN
 
Stove/Furnace Make: axeman anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130 anthratube

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:58 pm

My diesel generator came with a transfer switch which I did not install. Why? Because for it to function as intended you need to warm the engine coolant. Only then will the diesel generator reliability start. A 1000 watt electric resistance heater does that. I didn't want that kind of utility company load. Yes, it's on a thermostat but still it's a lot especially in the winter months. The diesel generator has glow plugs but they were not wired. I added a manual glow plug controller. Now I can start it when it's cold using glow plugs. In summer months it's not needed.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:10 am

AA130FIREMAN wrote:A diesel will not just start that fast, I need to hit the glow plug 1/2 to a minute, that is why I opted to forget about an auto transfer switch.

I understand...but just so you know, what I described will still work remotely form the house.
You need 5 #12 wires...2 separately switched (momentary push button) hots and 1 constant hot... all 120 volts and originating from inverter connected to 12vdc marine batteries at diesel generator. 1 of the switched 120vac hot will operate the glow plugs for as long as you hold the button in. Then you would push the other switched 120vac hot and crank up the engine...when she fires let go of that button...you're making power.
The other 2 wires (120ac hot & neut.) originate from the house panel for the float battery charger.

Besides the wire and switches described above, you would need 1 relay sized for the DC amp-load of the glow plugs and 1 contactor/relay sized for the cranking DC amp-load of the starter, both having 120vac mag. coils...and an inverter sized for the bigger contactor's in-rush amps.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: Willis On: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:53 am

remote car starter? no wires and works several hundred feet. I see them advertised for under a hundred dollars and the have a glow plug timer for diesel trucks. the only thing would be to disable the time out on it.
Willis
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Combustioneer 24 FA w/ Will-Burt s-30
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Combustioneer 77, Stokermatic
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 520,521
Coal Size/Type: Washed stoker- Bituminous

Re: Time to set up the generator

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:24 am

I don't know the load requirements of the starter solenoid (to pull in) but it is no where near the load requirement of the starter. If the solenoid draws 1 amp to pull in then buy #12 s o cord and run it in plastic conduit. You can run all off the battery on the generator.

Use a similar solenoid for the glow plug.

Also, you will need a transformer 480v three phase to 240v single phase.

Tom
OldAA130
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130