Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

Forum rules
ATTN Coal Dealers: To advertise your company you're allowed to start one new topic in "Coal Prices, Coal Quality, Coal Dealer Inquiries and Reviews". You may also respond to other topics started by others where your company has been mentioned and are encouraged to do so. Any other posts just for advertising here or anywhere else on nepacrossroads.com will be considered spam and removed. Repeated violations will result in a permanent ban.

Will todays low and seemingly still falling NG prices eventually force down anthracite coal prices?

Yes
6
8%
No
67
92%
 
Total votes : 73

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:07 pm

Does anyone know what percentage of Eastern PA anthracite is used for purposes other than residential or commercial space heating? Also, how much is exported annually as a percentage of the mined total? I've seen where it is a viable substitute for coke in the making of steel.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: McGiever On: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:19 pm

lsayre wrote:Does anyone know what percentage of Eastern PA anthracite is used for purposes other than residential or commercial space heating? Also, how much is exported annually as a percentage of the mined total? I've seen where it is a viable substitute for coke in the making of steel.


It was mention here on this board recently that UAE Harmony exports RAW coal to Canada.

Coke is a manufactured product, usually from soft coal, to substitute soft coal w/ a more expensive coal to end up w/ more expensive coke does not make sense to me. :o
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
Baseburners & Antiques: OUR GLENWOOD 111 BASEBURNER "1908"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: Berlin On: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:56 am

when anthracite is substituted for steelmaking coke, it is used as is. The particular coal selected however must be a very high grade anthracite with low ash and certain impurities.
Berlin
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Will-Burt Combustioneer 77B
Coal Size/Type: Ohio BITUMINOUS pea stoker coal

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:48 pm

I'm still interested in anyone who might have financial information (more insider type stuff) that could shed some light on what we are paying for at $160 per ton.

In the electric industry, our cost to produce is down to the dollar. Fuel cost is the biggest. Then payroll. And variable O&M. Etc. But the details are there so anyone who knows how to find this information through FERC or the EIA can easily find it on the web.

Anyone?

Tom
OldAA130
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: Yanche On: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:10 am

I don't think there are any publicly traded anthracite mining companies, so cost and profit will be impossible to get. If you talk to people who live in the anthracite region and know where the mine owners or coal processors live none have told me they live an extravagant life style. If you want to really know, put together a business plan to start your own coal operation. You will likely find profit margins are thin.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:35 pm

I'm with you on the thin profit margins.

I don't get real red faced to pay the $160/ton.

I've been burning this stuff for my fourth season now. This is the best this old girl has done yet.

At $3.50/gallon, the oil option is out of reach.

So the point of this thread was to debate whether the low price of natural gas would push down the price of coal.

I'm guessing about the following, but here's the way I see it... what would lower the cost of coal per ton?
- lower the cost of regulation (back off state and federal govts) - conceivable, not likely
- lower the cost of labor related regulations (OSHA and MSHA) - conceivable, not likely
- lower the Oparating and Maintenance costs at the mine and other processing facilities - not likely
lots of years of experience by mine operators, this one is likely fixed and consistent year to year, except for variable costs such as fuel etc.
- lower the cost of labor - not likely
I don't think this would be affective long term. This isn't China... Let the miners make a decent living digging up the rocks that I burn.
- lower the cost of the owner's profit margin - not likely
I wish to burn coal long into the future... no profits, no coal...
- Anything else that affects the prices we pay?

Tom
OldAA130
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: steamup On: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:59 pm

I think diesel fuel has a major influence in the increases of the price of coal.

Look what the price has done from 2009 until now.

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHa ... US_DPG&f=W
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: SMITTY On: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:03 pm

In MA diesel is a HUGE factor in coal cost. At least 25% of the cost is fuel .... to 50% at some places. There are guys out near the city charging close to $350 a ton for Blaschak bagged!!!

At that price I'd just burn oil. :roll:
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: steamup On: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:17 am

My oil supplier called me this weekend and said they had a "Sale" on oil for this week. Only $3.50 gallon. I told them no thanks, I didn't need oil. They ask why and I told them I am burning coal. They said "Oh" and hung up.

At $350/ton for coal, it is still 1/2 the price of oil at $3.50/gallon.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: anthony7812 On: Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:41 am

I know im sidetracking with this thread but ive been reading most of it. Coal mining is just like my brother in law's dairy farm. Sure if you mine or run a dairy farm your like most people you wont starve but you far from being the next donald trump. Im sure the mining business would like to make profits just as any one of us in our ventures, but demand more than likely wouldnt allow it for the most part. Smitty you pointed that out already with coal over 300/ton your area. It is unfortunate the cost of heating a home, when we recently bought our new(to us) home I made darn sure to think about heating cost.Thus bringing me to this forum. Was this even thought about years ago? All in all its tougher these days starting out than from what I percieve than what it was 20/30 yrs ago, this is my opinion anyway. Alot of friends I have now work for the natural gas business, they do get paid very well. No time off but hey most are single own but a pickup hell work all the hours now so you dont have to later in life. Natural gas I hope does slow the increase or drop coal prices, trucking/fuel prices is the worry for the local materials yard in town.
anthony7812
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VanWert VA 400
Coal Size/Type: Buck/Anthracite

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: qbwebb On: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:27 pm

Friends of mine on the peanut butter/ bury head in sand plan plan just got topped off at $4.25/gal. This type of plan to me is the one where people pay monthly all year for their heating fuel cost (peanut butter) and the bury your head in sand part of plan (auto delivery where the dealer tops you off automatically at his peak price convenience rather than call around for best rate).

I paid $260/ton bagged & delivered of blaschak last June (24 tons), the same dealer is now @ $310/ton + delivery. I was contemplating a coal stove in my basement to augment the shed stoker boiler for the coldest parts of the winter, but with this recent rise in prices I am starting to think about a basement woodstove instead. Wood in my area can be had for $200/cord delivered, and most recently it can be had for free as people are chunking up large hardwood trees from the storm and leaving by the side of the road for the town to pick up.

Diesel use per mile and unit weight of coal delivered is a pretty straight fwd calculation, I would be interested in the diesel use per/lb of coal mined & broken. I imagine the distance from NEPA that coal is competitive compared to wood (with all the labor factored in) is going to go down in the future as diesel prices continue to rise with our currency’s devaluation. It would be nice to see some dealer’s contract with rail companies to save shipping cost. Rail is how some pellets arrive from Canada to CT, I don’t see why the same thing can be worked out with coal.
qbwebb
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: VF3000

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: OldAA130 On: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:37 pm

qbwebb wrote: It would be nice to see some dealer’s contract with rail companies to save shipping cost. Rail is how some pellets arrive from Canada to CT, I don’t see why the same thing can be worked out with coal.


Interesting point. I thought I saw an offer here somewhere to buy a car load with a group delivered to the closest rail yard in their town. I'm too close to the coal fields to take advantage but maybe some folks who live far, far away.
OldAA130
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Axeman Anderson
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:09 pm

qbwebb wrote: It would be nice to see some dealer’s contract with rail companies to save shipping cost. Rail is how some pellets arrive from Canada to CT, I don’t see why the same thing can be worked out with coal.

Sad to say, there was a dealer near here with a rail siding running through huge coal storage bins. They stopped handling coal some years ago, and when I contacted them a few years back they said they just did not see enough demand in the area to start up again.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: lsayre On: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:43 pm

How many pounds of anthracite are there is a railcar load?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Stockton Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: Will low NG prices force anthracite prices to begin falling?

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:59 pm

lsayre wrote:How many pounds of anthracite are there is a railcar load?

122 tons, according to FreightCar America, Inc.:
"The aluminum BethGon® II has been designed to transport coal with unrivaled efficiency. It has a 42,000 pound lightweight which allows for a hefty 244,000 pound payload. The BethGon's® patented double tub floor design utilizes coal carrying capacity like no other gondola. Its innovative longitudinal tub floor design carries an extra 36,000 pounds of coal when compared to traditional gondola designs. It also lowers the BethGon's® center of gravity for a more stable ride, reduced wear, and lower maintenance costs."

Union Pacific: "... much of Union Pacific's system is approved for the heavy axle rail cars that can handle up to 286,000 lbs. or 315,000 lbs. gross weight ..."
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Visit Lehigh Anthracite