New to the coal world and need a little direction

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: blrman07 On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:33 am

4 years on my SS double wall chimney from a big box store and the top two sections are brown on the east side. Prevailing winds come from the west to the east. I'll be replacing it in about 2-3 years. I have saved an incredible amount of money burning ant coal vrs the wood I was buying twice a season. No free wood around here. I don't own land and if I cut down my one tree that I have where would the black bear scratch his back?
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
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Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:22 am

Are you guys burning in regular 316ss or 316ti ss? Reading more on 316ti, the titanium atoms stabilize the ss at high temperatures and will not allow the 316ss to precipitate chromium carbide , giving it much better corrosive resistance. Also reading more, if you are burning only anthracite and not a lower grade bituminous, then the sulfuric acid will be very low compared. I have been talking to some coal experts at the power plant in the past day or so. I'm not saying this 316ti won't fail on me sometime but I guess since I have a contract for a "lifetime" from the chimney installers to replace it at their cost, I feel ok about trying it out. A company offering that sort of contract, that has been in business many years, wouldn't just throw any old crap in the chimney if they knew they would have to eat 2600$ in a few years. At least that's how I look at it now. But I guess I will see first hand. I also am interested in getting a hold of some pieces of 316ti pipe and hearing it to 800 degrees and then smearing sulphuric acid on it as it cools, see the results. I was a metals technology guy in the Airforce for 6 years.

Some more interesting info on 316Ti

What is grade 316Ti (1.4571)?

Grade 316Ti stainless steel has been traditionally specified by German engineers and users with the Werkstoff number 1.4571.The former steel grade in the UK was 320S31.

This grade is essentially a standard carbon 316 type with titanium stabilisation and is similar in principle to the titanium stabilisation of the 304 (1.4301) type to produce 321 (1.4541). The addition of titanium is made to reduce the risk of intergranular corrosion (IC) following heating in the temperature range 425-815C.

Intergranular corrosion

When austenitic stainless steels are subject to prolonged heating in the temperature range 425-815C, the carbon in the steel diffuses to the grain boundaries and precipitates chromium carbide. This removes chromium from the solid solution and leaves a lower chromium content adjacent to the grain boundaries. Steels in this condition are termed 'sensitised'. The grain boundaries become prone to preferential atack on subsequent exposure to a corrosive environment. This type of corrosion is known as intergranular corrosion (IC), also known in the past as 'weld decay'.

The addition of titanium reduces the risk of IC since titanium carbo-nitrides are formed in preference to chromium carbides which has the effect of maintaining the correct distribution of chromium throughout the structure of the steel.
The result is that areas adjacent to grain boundaries, where the carbo-nitrides form, is not depleted of chromium to a level at which localised corrosion can occur in the grain boundary area.

http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=71

http://enshop.ebdoor.com/Shops/516030/Products/9510.aspx
Read the product uses of thes 316ti boiler tubes.

I am really interested in the science behind all this now. So I am going to read even more about this.
Last edited by Smokeyja on Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:32 am

Also some info on perlite which is what is going to be surrounding the 316ti tube as a thermal insulator.


http://www.silbrico.com/chimney.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
it is a form of lime mortar, so when the 316Ti were to fail, the house is still safe for years to come.
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

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Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:02 am

Our 316tiSS chimney was put in back in Jan of 1993 and hasn't failed yet. The chimney cap had to be repaired this year, the sleeve that locks in to place on the stack rotted away from the cap itself. I was able to rig it back together with copper wire. I am interested to see how long the copper lasts.

There was some rust staining on the outside of the top section, I believe this dripped down from either the cap or the screening that was part of the cap. The screening is gone, rotted away. The inside of the stack is not crumbling away from what I can see & feel, I did not take it apart to inspect it, though, just reached down as far as I could from the top.

I wire brushed the rust stains off and re-painted with some rustoleum silver I had in the shop. I thought I had a couple pics of it, but they must be on the other computer.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: SteveZee On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:19 am

Wow, 1993 is pretty good Bob! Do you wash it down with soda at the end of the season or do anything special? That's going on 20 years and is quite impressive. I guess allot of it must be individual to the specific situation?
PS: Happy Thanks giving everybody! Eat up!
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: dlj On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:17 am

Smokeyja wrote: Reading more on 316ti, the titanium atoms stabilize the ss at high temperatures and will not allow the 316ss to precipitate chromium carbide , giving it much better corrosive resistance.

Intergranular corrosion

The addition of titanium reduces the risk of IC since titanium carbo-nitrides are formed in preference to chromium carbides which has the effect of maintaining the correct distribution of chromium throughout the structure of the steel.
The result is that areas adjacent to grain boundaries, where the carbo-nitrides form, is not depleted of chromium to a level at which localised corrosion can occur in the grain boundary area.

I am really interested in the science behind all this now. So I am going to read even more about this.


I use steel pipe, but that's mainly for economic reasons. The cost of stainless steel compared to steel is such that I could change out my steel flue liner several times before I ever spent as much money as the cost of the stainless... Steel also works well in this application...

As far as the metallurgy of the Ti stabilized SS, 316L is pretty much as good so if I were building a chimney and wanted to use one or the other, I'd base my choice on cost, not much performance difference in a home chimney...

The development of 316L was based on weldability. Also, the explanation of what happens at the grain boundaries is a bit off. If you have a higher carbon content stainless, then the carbon forms Chromium carbides at the grain boundaries, not carbo-nitrides. The formation of the chromium carbides is what depletes the adjacent grains of Cr. With 316L, there is not enough carbon around to form Chromium carbides, hence you don't get the Cr depletion.

It used to be very expensive to get the C level low enough in these SS, now it's commonplace and so the Ti stabilized version of the austenitic stainless is not so common...

dj
dlj
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Castings Resolute
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Stove coal
Other Heating: Oil Furnace, electric space heaters

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:44 am

Really, I don't think the steel pipe would cost less in the long run. I guess it depends on where you get it from and the hassle it may be to change it out every year. The general consumer probably will buy their steel pipe from lowes which would cost them a couple hundred. So you spend a couple hundred every year. Plus you have to change it out every year. With my house I have old lime mortar chimneys which are fine to burn coal in but I needed it insulated aswell as properly vented for wood and coal and for heavy burning because it is goin to be my only heat source. In some cases people can't just shove a liner down a chimney every year. Mine will be filled with perlite to help with structure and insulate it 100% against any heat damage to the 150 year old wooden structure that could cause a fire. Plus it's a really tall chimney on a 2 story house and I pulled out an old Steel liner which wasn't fun at all! Plus for 2600$ I had the old fireplace bricked up and 316Ti line and thimble is being put in and sealed with perlite around it. It's guaranteed for lifetime. In 7 years, if it fails, I just make a phone call and everything is replaced for free. If I had used steel pipe I'd still be replacing it every year. If you ask me the investment greatly outweighs the temporary economic advantage. Not to mention It wouldn't pass code in my house.

I am even debating on using 316ti for the coal forge I am building in my shop behind the house. Probably just for the tube though. The hood I will fab out of regular 316.
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: dlj On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:10 am

Smokeyja wrote:Really, I don't think the steel pipe would cost less in the long run. I guess it depends on where you get it from and the hassle it may be to change it out every year. The general consumer probably will buy their steel pipe from lowes which would cost them a couple hundred. So you spend a couple hundred every year. Plus you have to change it out every year. With my house I have old lime mortar chimneys which are fine to burn coal in but I needed it insulated aswell as properly vented for wood and coal and for heavy burning because it is goin to be my only heat source. In some cases people can't just shove a liner down a chimney every year. Mine will be filled with perlite to help with structure and insulate it 100% against any heat damage to the 150 year old wooden structure that could cause a fire. Plus it's a really tall chimney on a 2 story house and I pulled out an old Steel liner which wasn't fun at all! Plus for 2600$ I had the old fireplace bricked up and 316Ti line and thimble is being put in and sealed with perlite around it. It's guaranteed for lifetime. In 7 years, if it fails, I just make a phone call and everything is replaced for free. If I had used steel pipe I'd still be replacing it every year. If you ask me the investment greatly outweighs the temporary economic advantage. Not to mention It wouldn't pass code in my house.

I am even debating on using 316ti for the coal forge I am building in my shop behind the house. Probably just for the tube though. The hood I will fab out of regular 316.


Well, don't know about changing it out every year... My current chimney has been in for three or four years with no signs of degradation. Past chimneys I've had have been in for close to 10 years without a problem. I moved before they had problems, so I don't know how long they actually lasted...

In your case of putting that inside pearlite, I would agree with you. I'd prefer putting in a SS chimney and not worry about it again... My case is different. It's pretty easy to change if I need to, and I don't have any problems with rusting.... So we can revisit this conversation in a few years and see how I feel then... ;)

But the difference between 316Ti and 316L would truly be a question of price. Their performance in this application is just about identical... In fact, the 316L may be slightly better...

dj
dlj
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Castings Resolute
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Stove coal
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Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:23 am

Yea I kind of made that statement on a little exaggerated level lol I have delt with steel pipe and it can last a lot longer than a year and I am sure they sell different gauge piping in steel. To be honest I haven't done enough research between the Ti and the L 316ss to agree or disagree with you on the comparability but you say the L has the better weld ability ? You know if I really want to save some money I could get one of the large diameter sch40 steel pipes to drop in there ;) talk about taking years to corrode! Incased in perlite I could easily get 50 years out of it!
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:33 am

wsherrick wrote:Click on the link below to read about my Glenwood Base Heater. In the little search box in the right hand corner, type Glenwood and see what comes up.


http://nepacrossroads.com/about16430.html



I checked out the thread and that is defiantly one awesome stove! Btw I have no basement though. I live in a low water table area, so basements weren't so common due to flooding... Although all the houses in Richmond city have them and they are only a few miles away, but they flood a lot!

I need to some more stove scavaging around town. I tried to buy an old stove from my friends dad thats just under a bunch of junk in his garage and he said " they sell stoves at lowes starting out at $195" I told him I have 3 coal/wood stoves and that I was only interested in older stoves that don't get used. I save them, restore them, and let them burn once again.
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:40 am

One thing I haven't asked. Which stove do you all feel is a better stove to heat the house if I had to choose between one? The cannon heater Pearl or the radiant warm morning?
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: freetown fred On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:07 pm

Which ever stove you feel will work best for your particular situation, which no one else is real familiar with my friend, except YOU. ;)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: dlj On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:09 pm

Smokeyja wrote:Yea I kind of made that statement on a little exaggerated level lol I have delt with steel pipe and it can last a lot longer than a year and I am sure they sell different gauge piping in steel. To be honest I haven't done enough research between the Ti and the L 316ss to agree or disagree with you on the comparability but you say the L has the better weld ability ? You know if I really want to save some money I could get one of the large diameter sch40 steel pipes to drop in there ;) talk about taking years to corrode! Incased in perlite I could easily get 50 years out of it!


316L was developed so you could weld it and the weld still has the same corrosion resistance as the base metal with no post-weld solution anneal.

I don't know about welding 316Ti. But my guess is it could be a problem. I'd have to check.

Building a heavy walled steel chimney could work, but I think I'd look for some schedule 10 (or even Schedule 5 if you could find it...) You'd probably get your 50 years out of a schedule 10 steel pipe. I'd paint it well before inserting in the pearlite and make sure you seal the top of the chimney well to be sure you didn't get water infiltration around the outside of the pipe... That would be a real bear to build though...

Fun to think about though...

dj
dlj
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Castings Resolute
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Baseheater #6
Coal Size/Type: Stove coal
Other Heating: Oil Furnace, electric space heaters

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:26 pm

dlj wrote:
Smokeyja wrote:Yea I kind of made that statement on a little exaggerated level lol I have delt with steel pipe and it can last a lot longer than a year and I am sure they sell different gauge piping in steel. To be honest I haven't done enough research between the Ti and the L 316ss to agree or disagree with you on the comparability but you say the L has the better weld ability ? You know if I really want to save some money I could get one of the large diameter sch40 steel pipes to drop in there ;) talk about taking years to corrode! Incased in perlite I could easily get 50 years out of it!


316L was developed so you could weld it and the weld still has the same corrosion resistance as the base metal with no post-weld solution anneal.

I don't know about welding 316Ti. But my guess is it could be a problem. I'd have to check.

Building a heavy walled steel chimney could work, but I think I'd look for some schedule 10 (or even Schedule 5 if you could find it...) You'd probably get your 50 years out of a schedule 10 steel pipe. I'd paint it well before inserting in the pearlite and make sure you seal the top of the chimney well to be sure you didn't get water infiltration around the outside of the pipe... That would be a real bear to build though...

Fun to think about though...

dj


Yea , I am going with what the company already purchased me which is the 316Ti pipe but it didn't cross my mind to do a heavy wall pipe until you mentioned the steel pipe. Speaking of cost on stainless, my company just bought some 1/4 wall 1.5" 304ss pipe (I believe it is 304 but can't remember) it cost $800 for a 20' length :o !

I would think you could weld 316Ti ok considering the Ti content is usually only .5% but it might change the properties at the weld and cause failure there first. That would be my guess. Now Titanium would be really cool to use but talk about cost! We also used Hastalloy in the AF on the F16 after burner het shields and that metal was a bear to weld and to grind but I am sure that would hold up amazing as a glue ;) not to mention a great conversation starter haha.

I am interested to see the true longevity of this 316Ti and I am going to run a camera I have down the liner every year and see how things hold up. It would be cool to report to this site my findings every year. It is so hard to find accurate information on products these days as many people have different experiences and some companies will obviously stretch the truth to sell a product, especially for more money. But in the case of the company I am dealing with they are putting their money where their mouth is. Chimney people are wierd in VA I had one qoute that wanted 5000$ to reline my chimney and use Portland mortar and Portland based filler and they totally didn't know what they were talking about regarding the use of Portland in a lime mortar chimney... If I didn't know better they would have destroyed my chimney! It's scary how some companies are allowed to practice!
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

Re: New to the coal world and need a little direction

PostBy: Smokeyja On: Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:31 pm

freetown fred wrote:Which ever stove you feel will work best for your particular situation, which no one else is real familiar with my friend, except YOU. ;)


I guess I will just have to try them both and find out :)

I couldn't find any info on the pearl cannon heater but I did find some on the warm morning. I was trying to compare their rated nominal BTUs or some kind of specs. I don't know how to date either yet. The Internet in some ways is helpful but I feel like I have become google illiterate because I some how never type in the right combination of words to get exactly what I want. I stumbled on this site searching for coal sales an I am glad I did though, because it's great!
Smokeyja
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood #6 baseheater
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut

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