"New" Warm Morning 500

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:10 pm

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:Thanks SWP... I am going to give it a try for sure. I just got focused on the high temps at the flue and was concerned about that more than anything.


I understand completely. I'm just hoping this idea lowers the temp closer to the stove. In theory, it should.
The best part of this, is the heat radiating area you gain is going to be astronomical compared to just the stove alone.

EDIT: A person could always add heavy steel pipe, or a piece of well casing or something for the first couple feet off the stove.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace


Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:31 pm

Kind of like an afterburner chamber...
Could even introduce some secondary air... :geek:
Maybe even some larger well casing...
give it some feet and a neck connecting to the WM...
Like a new style double barrel stove...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:06 pm

I would add that using longer stove pipe and elbows not only lowers the draft strength with resistance to flue gas flow, the more heat you extract from those flue gases before they reach the chimney the more it will also reduce the draft strength. So elbows plus longer pipe gives you two factors working to help tame a strong draft.

To give you some idea of what longer stove pipes and 2 elbow's affect on draft, I have two 90 degree elbows and 8 feet of pipe before the chimney thimble. My firebox only holds about 20+ pounds. Even with the dampers wide open and in direct draft, with the stove's top plates over the firebox are bright cherry red, the magnetic temp gauge on the stack, 3 feet up from the stove collar, never gets over 300 F and the highest I've seen the mano get is only .15. Checking the pipe surface temps with an IR gun shows the magnetic is within 20-25F up at those temps.

That stove is hooked to a brick chimney that is almost 40 feet high and goes 5 feet above where it's at the highest peak of the roof.

Those two bends and 8 feet of 6 inch pipe do a good job of helping to limit a strong drafting chimney that was built specifically for giving a strong draft for quick cooking temp changes with the coal kitchen range that was here in the late 1800-early 1900's (former owners were the local coal dealers).

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:14 pm

SWPaDon wrote:
AlaskaCoal1 wrote:Thanks SWP... I am going to give it a try for sure. I just got focused on the high temps at the flue and was concerned about that more than anything.


I understand completely. I'm just hoping this idea lowers the temp closer to the stove. In theory, it should.
The best part of this, is the heat radiating area you gain is going to be astronomical compared to just the stove alone.

EDIT: A person could always add heavy steel pipe, or a piece of well casing or something for the first couple feet off the stove.


For every foot of length, a 6 inch stove pipe adds 1.5 square feet of heat radiating surface area. For 8 inch pipe it's 2 square feet. ;)

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:28 am

Thanks for all the help... next time I am in town I am picking up some extra pipe to help garner as much heat into the shop as possible.

Latest Update... I may have found my problem. I went over the stove again today looking for area that might be pulling air and I found one. the ash door damper spring was pulling to tight along the top allowing the bottom to be loose ( not much but just enough that when i pushed on it with my finger that I could feel it move slightly. I repaired the spring tension and fired it up. I went through my normal routine and locked down the stove and the fire just seem to idle.. I actually thought something was wrong because I I locked it down early and it took a while for the pipe temps to rise above 250... so I opened her up and the temps started to rise... shut it down and they started to fall...almost too much... I am early in the testing phase but it would seem that I may have found at least one of the problems. The manometer with fresh coal runs the same... .04 but the temps are not swinging wildly. During idle it is even falling to .03. Now to try the radiator to pull even more heat and start working on fine tuning the stove. Hopefully this is the only issue and FINALLY I may have a stove that will idle with loads of coal and start pumping heat. We shall see.... funny how the slightest of a crack and the stove runs wild... I still think lowering the draft pull on the stove will help though... thanks again for the support and ideas... I post again once I get her tuned in so others may be assisted with drafting issues. This forum Rocks.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: corey On: Mon Dec 26, 2016 8:54 am

That sounds very similar situation with my Buck stove. If the slider was not getting a good seal it would run wild.

Glad your making progress.
corey
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: USS Ashley coal stove
Coal Size/Type: Eastern KY bituminous

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:29 am

Sounds like you found a leak, AlaskaCoal1. That's a good thing.
When my wife and I were dating, there was a Warm Morning in her parents house along with a Home Comfort cooking stove/range, and a big ole coal furnace in the basement. I worked with them occasionally. That Warm Morning would do as you were describing and throw flames several feet up the smoke pipe turning it a nice shade of red. It took a lot to keep that 4 story house warm.
I never messed with the Home Comfort, and they replaced it with an electric range shortly after we started dating. Dam, that was a long time ago........where did the time go.
Keep us posted on your progress.

Here is a pic of the type of cookstove my inlaws had:
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SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:30 am

If its not one thing its another...
Glad it was an easy fix...
Just goes to show how a minor amount of air...
Can make a good stove seem bad...
You should have a good draft on that 8" pipe...
So experiment away on the radiator...
Just keep checking that draft...
And have the carbon monoxide detectors mounted...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove


Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:07 pm

Ok sorry I messed up the quote see the below post for my question.
Last edited by AlaskaCoal1 on Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:08 pm

Stephen in Soky wrote:Based on advertising the 400 was a 100 lb with thermostat and my 500 was an 80 lb without. I haven't given up on this one yet. But if I'm still getting up in the night next weekend I will put the old stove back. Here's what I ought to put on the 500, but it's on a really nice Kenmore branded circulator that I really hate to tear up. A one piece bolt on Robertshaw theromstat that pushes the air flap closed an relaxes to open it. I'm no stove expert but I've never seen another like it.

Image

Image

Image

I am looking to fine tune the stove a bit more. Just wondering if anyone might know where to get the RobertShaw that the OP was talking about. If not I am going to try to hook up one like on the hitzer, blaze king, or vermont stoves. The stove is running nicely BUT... the reloading time I have not quite figured out. Spending to much time before I can walk away... If i load it to fast and trust the flues to do there job the stove idles to far down and does not create heat... I have noticed it does much better setting the under fire air slightly open for a while then after about 30-40 min shutting it down... hence I am doing the same as a bi metal.

Not sure if one can be rigged for this stove but it is worth a shot.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:47 am

Well the Rosemont look alike is complete. I will try and take some pictures.. working ok so far.. the draft is running around .03 to .04 with the baro wide open. BUT the temps right out of the flue are still very hot they still get up around 700 but after some time seems to idle better in the 400-480 arena ... No fan as of yet so this may be the ONLY thing I can do to wash the heat off. Now I am working on how to load and fine tune the stove for long burn times with max heat... since I need the heat... -27 here today -25 yesterday
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:40 am

It's been a long time since I used a Warm Morning, but, from what I remember of my Father-in-laws stove it would do the same. The flames would come shooting out those chimney brick inside the stove and continue up the flue until they hit the MPD. Once the Bit coal gassed off some, it would calm down just as you are describing.

On another note. If the rosemont is not harming your draft, and is creating good heat, you could add to it. You could add 2 elbows, forming a 'U' shape and putting the second rosemont beside the first one. This would keep the 'footprint' in a 'square pattern' like a stove, using minimal space. It would be the equivalant of a 'second stove', but only using the flue gasses for heat. Might be the ticket for the near minus 30 degree temps you are experiencing.

Only you can be the judge as to whether it's worth the time and investment. This experiment is getting extremely interesting, let us know how it all works.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:34 am

A little math and something to ponder. I am basing most of this off knowns from a torpedo heater with the assumptions that it is producing as stated.

Facts
• Outside Temp = -25
• Initial start shop temp = 40
• Temp at end of 8-10 min cycle = 49

Torpedo stove
• 195,000 btu / hr
• 3250 btu / min
• 10 min run time = 32500 btu/ 10min run
• Heater cycle rate = approx. = 8-10 on / 30 – 37 off

***Mathematical calculation taken against 10 min on / 30 min off***
• Cycles per 24 hours = 36 cycles of 10 min each
• Total BTU / day = 1,170,000 BTU / 24 hours = 48,750
• 48,750 BTUs needed to keep shop in 40-49 degree range -- ***Calculated***

Coal Facts
• Usibelli Sub bit coal
• 7500 BTU / lb
• 1,170,000 BTU / 7500 = 156 lbs/day of coal needed to produce calculated needed BTUs

Warm Morning Facts
• Stove run at approx. same outside Temp with no help from topedo heater
• Stove heated the barn from 32 degrees to 42 degrees in approx. 3 hours
• Stove cold cranked but time not started until the coal was up and running with flue temps of 300 degrees
• Loaded with approx. 50 lbs of coal
• Once temp was reached fire was still hot and estimate 20 lbs left (hard to tell)


Theory:
• With these facts I sumize that it if the stove were to be putting off 48K BTUs then it should have only taken 1 hour to see an approx. 9-10 degree temp change
• It actually took 3 hours to see this change so theory is that the stove is only producing approx. – 1/3 of 48K or 16K per hour—this seems extremely low and more testing is needed to verify as this was only one intial test but the raw facts are accurate
• 30 lbs of coal has raw BTUs of 225K BTUs or 75K BTU/hr – if this is correct the stove is horribly ineffiecient – I know it is not an efficient stove but I doubt it is that bad …
• Of note the stove did this without the aid of ANY fan assistance unlike the torpedo heater

JUST FOOD for thought as I know some of you are math BTU junkies… I am getting hooked as well.

I owe pics of the Warm Morning phone died tonight as I was preparing to take some.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:16 am

Pics of the stove as promised. Still have to put the top panel back on but the front panel is missing. Would love to find a replacement for it but in Alaska that is probably impossible... any places that I might start looking. Temps are holding fairly well... just wish I could get longer burn times out of her... I was hoping for 10 hour burn times but barely getting 7... could stretch to 10 but it would be nearly out by then. Even with 7 hours it takes some doing to get her fired up and cranking again.
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My home made Rosemont
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IR thermometer says about 70 cooler than this one... if it is correct
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Interior Flues do help or prevent puff backs
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runs about this all the time -.03 to -.04
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AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: "New" Warm Morning 500

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:23 am

Lookin good. The flames are just as I remember them, very high and going up the pipe as far as the MPD. Hows the rosemont working? Is it throwing lots of heat?
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace