Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Salemcoal On: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:51 pm

What is the load of each zone and heat loss of the house? I don't know alot about primary secondary but Yanche your suggested setup may not work so well in colder climates on cold days. The return water from that first set of closed spaced tees may lower the water temp in the primary so it cannot adequately heat the next zone down the line on the coldest days.
Salemcoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: harmonsf150
Stove/Furnace Model: alaskachaning3

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:48 pm

Salemcoal wrote: I don't know alot about primary secondary but Yanche your suggested setup may not work so well in colder climates on cold days.


Your correct

You do not understand how a correctly installed primary loop works too bad :cry:
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:22 am

Sting wrote:
Salemcoal wrote: I don't know alot about primary secondary but Yanche your suggested setup may not work so well in colder climates on cold days.


Your correct

You do not understand how a correctly installed primary loop works too bad :cry:

When trying to educate someone about a better method you start with the basics, that's just what I've done. It's a very simple solution to get hydraulic isolation. It also permits easy switching between boilers. A more complete design includes heat flow analysis, both that supplied to the loop and removed from the loop. Many installations have different heat demands, indirect hot water heater, space heating radiation and radiant floor heat. By selecting which set of tees are used you can almost always meet each of the heating loads. You are free to use any piping method you want, however primary secondary is an proven technique used by many experienced hydronic heating system engineers.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea


Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Salemcoal On: Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 pm

Yanche , Thanks for the response without knocking me. Pretty easy to bash someone when your halfway across the country.
Salemcoal
 
Stove/Furnace Make: harmonsf150
Stove/Furnace Model: alaskachaning3

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:08 pm

Salemcoal wrote:Yanche , Thanks for the response without knocking me. Pretty easy to bash someone when your halfway across the country.

Bashing someone is not my style. When learning something new we all start with opinions on how it should work based on our prior experiences, only by education and analysis do we gain a deeper understanding.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: aducarab On: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:41 am

So, I have finished the installation. Still doing final touchups on the coal bin before loading it up and firing it up, along with some wiring 'issues'. I'm hoping someone here can guide me.

"pumping away'" describes and talks about having the circulator in the primary loop run anytime one of the zones calls for heat, but my dilemna is figuring out how this has to be wired up to achieve this.

Here are the parts I have in this configurations at this point:
Honeywell triple aquastat (one on both oil and coal boilers)
1 circulator in primary loop
2 heating zones w/ circulator and single honeywell relay for each( main zone uses the aquastat as the relay)
1 Indirect DHW feed w/ Circ. with honeywell relay and thermostat on Hot water tank

Off the top of my head, the relays are R845's.

Ive been thinking of how to wire these, but the only option I can think of would result in all the circulators running anytime one called for heat....i think(havent tested the planned layout)..but it would invole the primary loop circulator going to a junction box where it would split and have lines running to each of the 3 relays. WIthout testing it, im wondering if that will just link all the circulators together, or if the relay boxes would prevent those circulators from running unless they call for heat. If this doesn't make sense, I can make a drawing.

Anyone have any suggestions? for now, I just have the primary loop circ and the main zone circualator wired together since that is the main zone that is used(the others are the basement..hardly used...and the DHW...which, once i switch it over to the coal boiler, with probably call for heat semi-often.

I asked a few local electricians and supply stores, and they just look at be dumbfonded.

Im sure you guys will be more help. You always have been.

I'll post some pics of the final setup in a day or so, I wanted to just do some touch ups so I can fill the bin and try to fire it up before I go bragging :)
aducarab
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10.375 / 144.08.02

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:00 am

One solution is to hook the primary circulator to C1/C2 on the EFM's triple aquastat, and connect the end switches (usually terminals 5/6 in the R845's, check to be sure) to the TT terminals in the EFM's triple aquastat. That is how mine is setup, but without standing in your boiler room it is impossible to see how the relays are currently wired.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:12 am

aducarab wrote:So, I have finished the installation. Still doing final touchups on the coal bin before loading it up and firing it up, along with some wiring 'issues'. I'm hoping someone here can guide me.

"pumping away'" describes and talks about having the circulator in the primary loop run anytime one of the zones calls for heat, but my dilemna is figuring out how this has to be wired up to achieve this.

Here are the parts I have in this configurations at this point:
Honeywell triple aquastat (one on both oil and coal boilers)
1 circulator in primary loop
2 heating zones w/ circulator and single honeywell relay for each( main zone uses the aquastat as the relay)
1 Indirect DHW feed w/ Circ. with honeywell relay and thermostat on Hot water tank

Off the top of my head, the relays are R845's.

Ive been thinking of how to wire these, but the only option I can think of would result in all the circulators running anytime one called for heat....i think(havent tested the planned layout)..but it would invole the primary loop circulator going to a junction box where it would split and have lines running to each of the 3 relays. WIthout testing it, im wondering if that will just link all the circulators together, or if the relay boxes would prevent those circulators from running unless they call for heat. If this doesn't make sense, I can make a drawing.

Anyone have any suggestions? for now, I just have the primary loop circ and the main zone circualator wired together since that is the main zone that is used(the others are the basement..hardly used...and the DHW...which, once i switch it over to the coal boiler, with probably call for heat semi-often.

I asked a few local electricians and supply stores, and they just look at be dumbfonded.

Im sure you guys will be more help. You always have been.

I'll post some pics of the final setup in a day or so, I wanted to just do some touch ups so I can fill the bin and try to fire it up before I go bragging :)

The Honeywell R845 control relays have two independent contacts. You should use one set of contacts to power the zone pump. It turns the zone pump on or off based on room thermostat demand. The second contact set, e.i. contacts marked 5 & 6, becomes a control contact. You wire all the zone relay control contacts in parallel. Each 5 goes to the next 5; each 6 goes to the next 6, etc. Now when any zone, has a call for heat these contacts are closed.

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The primary loop circulator also has a R845. It will run when the T-T terminals are closed. You wire the paralleled 5 & 6 contacts to the T-T terminals. In effect you have created a logical "OR" circuit, when one or more of the zones call for heat the primary circulator also runs. Be careful with your wiring workmanship, you will have control and line voltage in close proximity to each other in the R845 box.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: aducarab On: Sun Jan 01, 2012 4:50 pm

I goofed. They are RA89A relays. They have the 2 connections for the thermostat wires, then 2, 1+3 are connected with a jumper, and 4.

Can it be done with this relay?

<removed dead image link>



Forgive my pen-n-paper drawings. Its the easiest way for me to lay it out.

Rob R:
Is this what you meant? or even, would this work setup like this?

<removed dead image link>

Yanche:
Would this drawing above create a similar setup using the 4 contacts in the RA89A that you were talking about with the R845?
Last edited by Richard S. on Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: <removed dead image link>
aducarab
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Franco Belge
Stove/Furnace Model: 10.375 / 144.08.02

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:06 pm

THAT WILL NOT WORK. That will destroy your Aquastat. You are putting 120volts to the 24volt section of the aquastat. To use the relay boxes you have, you need to buy a RIB. Relay in a box. They are less than $10 apiece and are easily wired with the load. Parallel the contacts on the RIB to give the TT on the Aquastat the close signal. If you would like I can tell you how. :)
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 350, 700. Van Wert 400 x 2, 800, 1200.
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Finally Installing my EFM 520...Few questions along the way

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:14 pm

Wire your zones using your diagram on the left. The RIB needs to be hooked up as follows. The white/yellow stripe wire to terminal # 2, the white/ black stripe wire to terminal # 4. Connect all the solid yellow wires on every zone to one T on the triple Aquastat. Connect all the oranges on every zone to the other T on the Aquastat. Be sure to put wire nuts on the solid blue and the white/blue stripe wires so they don't short out.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x4, 350, 700. Van Wert 400 x 2, 800, 1200.
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck