Really temperamental stove/draft !!

The last update on this project !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Thu Feb 07, 2008 2:49 pm

I must have too much time on my hands!

My last "posted" improvement, was to add the plenum and duct to the first floor.
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Grille and register above the stove.
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While this was a vast improvement in getting the heat out of the basement, stove room, it didn't get it out into the house, without some help of a fan in the fireplace room.

Then I took the floor register out temporarily,
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Register in front of fireplace w/plenum enclosed.
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and added an elbow with some flex duct over to the step, by the vents I had put in. This seemed to work better. Now I was pondering about adding a duct to the hot air furnace system or putting a register in the face of the stoop, by the vents. The problem with the vents, register and stoop, was that I was sucking cold air off the floor and sending it to the basement stove room and the heat would be coming out in the same area. The temporary system, with the flex duct above the floor worked OK. :?:

I decided to take the easy route of running a flex duct from the floor register by the fireplace, between the joists and over to a grill in the face of the stoop. However, I was concerned about running the regular Mylar flex duct with the temperatures, which might be expected. My answer to this, was to create some higher temp. flex duct, using 6" aluminum dryer vent and the insulation sleeving, which can be gotten at HD.

Next, I cut out the opening for the 2-1/2" x 12" boot. After I got this cut out, I reached back in, between the joists, with a telescoping pruning saw and cut out one set of bridging (I didn't feel that the removal of the bridging would be a problem, as the joists are full 2" x 10", and only 10' long). I had fastened the boot to the flex duct, so was able to attach a rope and pull the whole thing through the joist cavity to the opening in the stoop. Next, was to attach an elbow and marry it to the 6" pipe/plenum in the vent hole above the stove/in front of the fireplace.
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Return air vents and hot air outlet.
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The hot air is being pushed from the stove through the duct, which is running with the red arrows. The vent on the right is closed, ... it was just too close to the heat. The vent on the left is pulling cold air off the floor and sending it via fan to the stove room.

After building a fire this morning and trying the new design, I decided that the proximity of the right floor vent and the hot air register were too close, so closed the floor vent ("hind sight", says I didn't need it). Currently, the hot air duct is producing 148*F. output, the dinning room is at 76*F., the far end of the house is at 72*F. and the stove room is at about 76*F.

While everybody's situation is different, somebody might get an idea from this saga. My heating for the winter of my 2600 square feet includes, coal consumption of about 1-1/2 tons, in addition to a tank of oil, which is used mainly in the morning, before a drag myself from bed. Typically, I would burn a tank of oil per month, in the heating season.

BTW, the stove is burning like a dandy! :) OTOH, the coal kinda sucks. :x
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:50 am

Here is a diagram of the air flow/circulation of my system. I've added the return duct from the cold air return, previously installed, to the stove room. ... removing the cold portion of the basement from the equation. Notice, both fans are moving "cold" air.

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Last edited by Dallas on Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:08 am

Nice diagrams Dallas... 'a picture is worth a thousand words'' !!

You created the all important circulation loop... and proved that it works..

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

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Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:32 am

I started out trying to allow things to happen "naturally", but that didn't quite happen. I few swipes with the Sawzall, some duct-work and grilles and all is well.

I'm anxious to get the damper on the stove, before it gets warm. What will I do next winter :?:
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:07 pm

Dallas wrote:I'm anxious to get the damper on the stove, before it gets warm. What will I do next winter :?:


So, I go to UPS Tracking to see how the damper is coming along, and ..........
"TAYLOR, PA, US 02/20/2008 3:00 A.M. TRAIN DERAILMENT " :wtf: :!: I wonder how long that's going to hold things up :?: :lol:
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: drujinin On: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:19 pm

I wish I didn't see his diagram as now I have ideas and a Sawzall!
I doubt my joists run the right way though????
drujinin
 

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:50 am

Wow, very nice work Dallas. I think more detailed pictures of varies setups would greatly help us new comers in setting up our systems. The information on the different temperature settings is priceless, something we all are concern with. Using a one room stove for the house and showing your layout of not only the feed and return air ducks but also the outside air inlet tube is just awesome. Wonderfully done. But I do have a couple of questions;

1. On your outside air inlet tube you used pvc pipe, is that safe enough to be connected to a stove or even that close to it without melting? Also how did you connect it and could you post a closeup picture of it for us to see. Your's seem to go straight into your stove while others seem like it would connect right to the fan motor.

2. The picture of your feed and cold air return seem to be within a foot of each other but in your diagram it looks like there almost across the room from one another, which is correct?

Great job with your hot air inlet hood, looks very professionally done.


Greg,
Do you think we could have a sticky made up showing in great length's of how and why people set up their systems? A place for people to read through and see what has been done and why to answer a lot of their questions before they just post and ask. It might greatly help people who are new in setting up their systems and others who are old looking to improve on their systems. As you said 'a picture is worth a thousand words' :D
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:42 am

adamiscold wrote:1. On your outside air inlet tube you used pvc pipe, is that safe enough to be connected to a stove or even that close to it without melting? Also how did you connect it and could you post a closeup picture of it for us to see. Your's seem to go straight into your stove while others seem like it would connect right to the fan motor.

2. The picture of your feed and cold air return seem to be within a foot of each other but in your diagram it looks like there almost across the room from one another, which is correct?


Thanks for your comments!

1. On the outside air inlet, the PVC pipe is laying on top of the brick, under the ash pan. This area never gets very warm. It is not connected to the stove at all, but merely dumping the fresh air in the area of the stove inlet.
I thought there would be a continual cold air rush from the pipe, however there is not.

2. The return dumps in the basement stove room, at the ceiling, across from the stove. The hot air, to the house, dumps right above the cold air return, but on the first floor level. They are separated from each other, unless I open the floor vents (which I had put in earlier and probably don't need now).
Last edited by Dallas on Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:52 am

Greg wrote to me to see if I was still alive. I told him I had a number of things on the burner.

One of the things was, I had a Lymance damper on the exterior top of the chimney. This became inoperable ... it wouldn't close. It turned out that the coal acid had eaten up the stainless steel cable running down the flue. So I removed the damper, and extended the flue height by 16", by adding another piece of flue tile and securing it with a fabricated stainless steel collar. Then I reinstalled my stainless steel cap from yesteryear.

I extended the flue, due to the early draft problems, which seemed to correct themselves, as things progressed. ??? But, even so, the fireplace flue and stove flue terminated at the same level, which isn't the best situation.
Attachments
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16" Flue extension
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Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:12 pm

I thought there would be a continual cold air rush from the pipe, however there is not.


Do you feel cold air blowing in or across your floor at all? This was an issue that I had thinking all this cold air is going to be pouring into the house as I'm trying to heat it, much like having a window cracked open. Is your stove in your living space where you spend time in other then babysitting the stove? I wonder if walking around bare foot if one would feel more of a draft from the outside air vent?



2. The return dumps in the basement stove room, at the ceiling, across from the stove. The hot air, to the house, dumps right above the cold air return, but on the first floor level. The are separated from each other, unless I open the floor vents (which I had put in earlier and probably don't need now).



Ok so both those duct vents on either side of your hot air feed vent is closed off? I miss read it that the one on the right was closed but the one on the left was still open, now I get it . :doh:
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:22 pm

Do you feel cold air blowing in or across your floor at all?


No, I don't feel any cold air in the room and only slightly at the mouth of the fresh air pipe. It might be due, in part, because of the several bends in the pipe. It seemed like there was more air flow when I was constructing the air supply and only had a straight piece of pipe hanging down the wall.

It is a finished room with an open stairway to the first floor. It's a great room for a nap in the winter!
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: drujinin On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:18 pm

It is an open stairway to the first floor?
why didn't you utilize that for either hot air or cold air return?
I am definitely going to use some of your ideas, but I'll need to work the open stairway into the picture as its at the end of the room farthest from the stove.
drujinin
 

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Dallas On: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:41 pm

It is an open stairway to the first floor?
why didn't you utilize that for either hot air or cold air return?


Yes, it is an open stairway to the first floor. I tried using the stairway, but didn't get the results I wanted. I could feel, both hot and cold air travel in the stairway, but it wasn't efficient. Even using a fan, blowing up or down, didn't work well. Keep in mind, that my house seems to be "possessed" and everything wanted to "move down". As you follow through my tale, you might get the idea, that is what I was trying to overcome. Before the final changes, with the fan and cold air return, the basement stove room would hover around 90* ..... I couldn't get enough heat out of the room.

I might also add, there doesn't seem to be much heat going up the open stairway to the second floor, either.?? So my house, does seem to oppose some of the laws of physics.
Dallas
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Modified Russo C-35
Other Heating: Oil Hot Air
Stove/Furnace Make: Russo
Stove/Furnace Model: Modified C-35

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: drujinin On: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:45 am

Not really because mine did the same thing until I too cut a hole in the floor as far from the stairway as possible.
drujinin
 

Re: Really temperamental stove/draft !!

PostBy: Adamiscold On: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:58 am

Would having a return duct near the top of a cathedral ceiling work for this type of setup? I know I see more and more systems having the return air ducts closer to the ceiling where it can get the warmer air to return back to the furnace, but would this be ideal for a coal stove set up or should the return be placed in the floor instead?
Adamiscold
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Chubby Sr. Old School

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