Coal Shortage

Carbon12 · Post by **Carbon12** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 3:53 pm

http://www.mcall.com/business/mc-allentown-coal-s ... 2051.story

This article was in the Allentown, PA Morning Call newspaper today

Smokeyja · Post by **Smokeyja** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 4:13 pm

It must be just some suppliers though right?
When I was calling PA companies to deliver me coal a few months back, they were ready to send 22.5 tons on a tractor trailer to my house. When I went to buy blaschak coal from WoodStoves Unlimited in Culpeper VA they had and still have quite a good deal of coal left and I bought a pallet (2400lbs) .

I have mixed feelings about this "coal shortage" because it seems like a hit or miss kind of story.

Coal Shortage?

Is it really a shortage or are some of the suppliers supporting china before the US?

Post by **coaledsweat** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 4:37 pm

Smokeyja wrote:Is it really a shortage or are some of the suppliers supporting china before the US?

From the link.

So he was surprised when he called a dealer a few weeks back to buy two tons of coal. "They said 'My God, I don't know when we can deliver it,'" Kupec said. "It might be six to eight weeks. There's no coal."

The coal dealer, like many of his customers, just waited too long before ordering their supply. Instead of owning up to their own mistake, it's easier to blame the Chinese (who aren't buying any serious quantity of anthracite).

Smokeyja · Post by **Smokeyja** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 4:44 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Smokeyja wrote:Is it really a shortage or are some of the suppliers supporting china before the US?
From the link.
So he was surprised when he called a dealer a few weeks back to buy two tons of coal. "They said 'My God, I don't know when we can deliver it,'" Kupec said. "It might be six to eight weeks. There's no coal."
The coal dealer, like many of his customers, just waited too long before ordering their supply. Instead of owning up to their own mistake, it's easier to blame the Chinese (who aren't buying any serious quantity of anthracite).

Youre right , this was all discussed in the other link I posted that went on this forum.
Although anthracite is the leading media for municiple water filtration.
It must have just been that particular supplier aswell.

Carbon12 · Post by **Carbon12** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 8:49 pm

What summer month is the best to buy coal as far as cost and availability?

2001Sierra · Post by **2001Sierra** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 9:16 pm

We always order about 1 month after the season is over. No fuss, no rush and it comes pretty quick.

Chuck_Steak · Post by **Chuck_Steak** » Mon. Dec. 26, 2011 9:24 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
The coal dealer, like many of his customers, just waited too long before ordering their supply.

I agree with this, as this was also the explanation we got as well.
Too many dealers wanted to hold on to their cash for as long as they could,
for whatever reasons, and when the orders started coming in, they were a plenty...
We urged people to buy as soon as possible, for two reasons.
To get the better pricing, more importantly, to get their product!
As I mentioned in an earlier post, last season, late winter, it was tough getting
product. There was no reason to believe this year would be different.
But it is.... it's harder to get now, than it was late last year!

Dan

Vinmaker · Post by **Vinmaker** » Tue. Dec. 27, 2011 9:09 pm

I hope you guys are right. I find the article depressing. Thinking that my secret of clean cheap heat is no longer a secret and now coal is in short supply. With prices rising.

Chuck_Steak · Post by **Chuck_Steak** » Wed. Dec. 28, 2011 9:22 am

Carbon12 wrote:What summer month is the best to buy coal as far as cost and availability?

I don't know that there is a 'best' summer month.
The price seems to stay stable throughout the summer, I would just buy it
as soon as you could, as long as it was not a big problem budget wise.
My guess, is that a lot of dealers next season, should have learned from
this one, that they need to do the same! And not wait until fall to
get their winter stock.
"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me!"

Dan

lsayre · Post by **lsayre** » Wed. Dec. 28, 2011 10:12 am

Wow, did you catch from the article linked to within the first post in this thread that Lehigh Anthracite has already sold all of its coal clear through 2012, with much of it sold to international dealers. Then the vice President of 'Coal Contractors' flat out says that China is buying it. I can't believe that there are some who are still denying that anthracite is going overseas, and primarily to China. Of course the mines and distributors are free to do what they want with their coal.

CapeCoaler · Post by **CapeCoaler** » Wed. Dec. 28, 2011 10:45 am

This is the main point of the link...

Growth in countries such as China, which now imports coal because it burns more than it produces, has disrupted global markets. And international coal dealers have turned to Pennsylvania for anthracite as a result, industry experts said.

Lehigh Anthracite, which operates a 7,500-acre mine in Carbon and Schuylkill counties, is producing 30,000 tons of anthracite each month and has sold it all through 2012, manager Zachary Kroh said. International coal dealers are buying more Pennsylvania anthracite because they are worried about potential supply problems in South Africa and Russia, he said.

"These international buyers are looking to diversify their suppliers, and there's not a lot of anthracite around," Kroh said. "We're doing everything we can to get more house coal on the market, it's just tough to meet those demands and our current orders."

Coal miners can't react quickly to increased demand because the industry is heavily regulated, expanding is expensive, and it can take a year to order new equipment, said Ray Petrilla, vice president of Coal Contractors, which operates a mine near Hazelton. Mining companies have to determine if the increased demand will persist long enough to justify large investments needed to increase production, he said.

This is the general theme...
The mines want the long term contracts so they can invest in the mines...
Production now needs to catch up with demand...
Short term the contract sales have sucked up any fat in the system...
Plan ahead this spring/summer for next winter...
There will not be 'excess product' in this global market...

kstills · Post by **kstills** » Wed. Dec. 28, 2011 11:34 am

Just ordered another 1.5 tons of rice from Hendricks.

He says they're good with rice, and that the mild weather has helped out (although the deliveries are a bitch given all the rain).

However, the price went up 10 dollars per ton. I know that sounds like a lot to some of you guys, but I was buying oil on the spot market for the last two years, so coal prices going up this much is chump change in comparison. I would see 50 cent per gallon swings in pricing on oil, depending on which Arab was pissed off at the other back in the day.

Chuck_Steak · Post by **Chuck_Steak** » Wed. Dec. 28, 2011 12:53 pm

Comparing the increases of oil and coal, is apples and oranges.
You have to look at what "generally" has happened in the past.

Oil is ridiculously unstable, and has been for quite some time.
Coal on the other hand has been 'generally' stable, so when you see
two increases in less than 2 months, it is unusual..

The fact that some countries pay 8 bucks for gas, is a red herring.
It does not make me feel any better when ours goes up to 3.70.
I look at what we paid a year or year and a half ago, and ask if any other products went up
the same.
Milk?
Bread?
Chicken?
Not really.

Dan

SteveZee · Post by **SteveZee** » Thu. Dec. 29, 2011 8:09 am

Chuck_Steak wrote:Comparing the increases of oil and coal, is apples and oranges.
You have to look at what "generally" has happened in the past.

Oil is ridiculously unstable, and has been for quite some time.
Coal on the other hand has been 'generally' stable, so when you see
two increases in less than 2 months, it is unusual..

The fact that some countries pay 8 bucks for gas, is a red herring.
It does not make me feel any better when ours goes up to 3.70.
I look at what we paid a year or year and a half ago, and ask if any other products went up
the same.
Milk?
Bread?
Chicken?
Not really.

Dan

Agreed Dan,

Extremely unstable and made that way by a cabal of traders.

That said, I hope to just stop the bragging and telling people the virtues of anthracite. I have been "spreading the gospel" ever since I changed over but I think I'll just stop being a coal zealot and let people find their own heating religions! Don't need the price going up any more.

whistlenut · Post by **whistlenut** » Thu. Dec. 29, 2011 8:28 am

You can leads them to water, but you can't make them drink..............
It's like politics.........believe who you want, when the tide goes out and the principals are still standing, you can clearly see who was wearing a bathing suit, or who was wearing a birthday suit!
Kinda makes you get the 'willies' doesn't it. Show me the BEEF!
PS: When is the last time a PA coal producer wanted to kill you, your way of life, and everything you hold dear?
I understand the need for petroleum products, but having the fox control all the hen-houses in the world is a tough pill to swallow!