Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:17 pm

nortcan wrote:Not an expert in the antique cars market, I was thinking that the model T was from Ford only, someone can help me on that question.

Yes it was from Ford and revolutionized how cars were built and marketed. At one time Ford sold half the cars in the world.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: LsFarm On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:37 pm

The Model T was from Ford only.

Franco, well I do have to compare the Ford product of the teens and twenties to the Pierce Arrows and the Packards.

The ford weighed under 2000#, which in some driving conditions was a pluss, but it indicated that it was a 'light duty vehicle.
The Pierce and Packard's smallest cars from the '20's were at least 3500#.. and it was all quality 'weight'.

The ford had a ~200 cubic inch 4 cylinder engine that could easily be broken by working it too hard, and they rarely went more than
15-20K miles between overhauls..
The smallest Pierce and Packard engines were 289 cubic inch six cylinder engines that frequently went 50K miles between overhauls, and
would go further if driven in clean [not dusty] conditions, cars in this era did not have air cleaners just screens at best on the carburetor.

The ford had a 'service brake' on the driveshaft, that needed relining very often. and parking or hand brakes on the rear wheels, tiny stamped
sheet metal rear brake drums.. no front brakes. Ford fought front brakes until the Model A came along later in the 20's
The Packards and Pierce's added front brakes in 1924, following the invention of a good reliable mechancal method to apply brake pressure to front
brake shoes while the cars front wheels were turned or rode over bumps.

Fords used white pine and fir as the structure of the body and floorboards, Ford insisted and required all packing crates for parts he bought from suppliers
were made with exactly the right wood, and the boards be just such and such size.. Ford took the crates apart and used the wood for floor boards and
other wood parts in the bodies.. Ford saved untold amounts of money with this move. He was a smart businessman.
But white pine and fir are soft woods that rotted and split very quickly, the ford and low priced cars had wood body issues within a few years if they were ever subjected to wet conditions and didn't dry out.

Pierce, Packard and other fine automobiles used northern white ash for body structures. This white ash is the hardest and finest grained of the available
North American woods.. MUCH better to work with than Oak.. And the ash didn't rot unless subjected to years and years [decades] of exposure to the elements. I have an all original 1926 car, the ONLY thing not original on this car are the tires and the exhaust pipe.. and the doors open and close like they
are on a bank vault. These bodies were BUILT to last. in the teens and 20's the body structure was covered with aluminum, starting in '29 Pierce went with steel skin on the wood body structures.

Pierce and Packard's engines were full pressure lubricated, rods, mains, camshaft and wrist pins.. Ford and most lesser cars were 'splash and dipper rods' lubricated..

In our Pierce Arrow society museum north of Kalamazoo at the national Classic Car Museum aka the Gilmore Museum, we had a Model T chassis displayed along side a Pierce Chassis, and the comparrison was like comparing a goKart to a 1-ton pickup truck..

Ford was a genius, he made a cheap, fairly reliable car that everyone who worked for him could afford. His automobile was often the first car someone owned, like th VW beetle in the 60's and 70's. The used Fords were often sold for $20-$50, depending on miles, condition and market. My father told me
he had dozens of them growing up, he'd buy a 'dead one' repair it to relative reliability, then sell it and get another.

Pierce arrows stayed in the family.. My all-original '26 Pierce was in use by the original owner untill '48.. compare a '48 anything, any make to any '26 car, and you can see that the '26 car was way, way outdated in '48, but still held the loyalty of it's owner.

OK, I've derailed this topic enough.

Greg L.
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All original 1926 Pierce Town car, Custom body by Durham Body company in Philidelphia.
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The 1925 Pierce Arrow 7pax Touring, and the '1926 Pierce TownCar.
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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:00 pm

Not trying to knock Pierce Arrow, but it is unfair to compare a car costing one tenth as much and also in the 1920s when the T was going obsolete. Lets look at 1910.

How much did Pierce Arrow owe to Ford who pioneered the use of alloy steel and methods of precision fabrication as well as assembly? The early T was both lighter and stronger than the competition.

Sure there were better cars to come along but Ford showed the way.

There is just no other car regardless of maker that effected the market as the T did. As a milepost in the history of cars it stands alone.
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franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

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Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: SteveZee On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:48 pm

I have a friend down Midcoast Maine that has a B&B right near the Owl's Head Museum. They've got a fantastic collection. My friend Grey, has real rare beauty himself. It's a 1926 Wills Sainte Clair T6 Roadster. Runs like a top too. This car was way ahead of it's time. The designer had worked for Ford as a metalurgist and was responsible for the development of Vanadium and Molybenum steel alloy. Virtually every component on the car subject to even minimal stress was made of molybdenum steel, including the crankshaft, connecting rods, camshaft, gearbox gears and shafts, propeller shaft, frame, springs, front axle, steering knuckles and wheels.

Sorry that 3 of us derailing now!
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SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: echos67 On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:32 pm

Pretty interesting, let me know if you guys get to Harley Davidson's .
echos67
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Glenwood No. 6.

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: LsFarm On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:01 pm

franco b wrote:Not trying to knock Pierce Arrow, but it is unfair to compare a car costing one tenth as much and also in the 1920s when the T was going obsolete. Lets look at 1910.

How much did Pierce Arrow owe to Ford who pioneered the use of alloy steel and methods of precision fabrication as well as assembly? The early T was both lighter and stronger than the competition.

Sure there were better cars to come along but Ford showed the way.

There is just no other car regardless of maker that effected the market as the T did. As a milepost in the history of cars it stands alone.


I was supporting my gag and puke respose to having my being called a Ford.. if you compare the 1910 cars the same will show it'self, the Pierce was way ahead of the industry in just about everything.. a Piece in '10 would have cost almost $7500, a ford back then around $800 I think,
The piece then weighed around 6000# There are still teen's pierces being driven 1000's of miles on tours today, just like the fords.. But with a hell of a lot
more safety and comfort.

Pierce arrow was a visionary in the use of special alloy steels in it's frames, they were heat treated, special high manganese content cast iron for the engine and cylinder blocks. and Pierce used aluminum for the crankcase since day one,, not untill the 8 cylinder and v12 engines did Pierce use a full cast iron engine block,
. Pierce and packard engines were the engines of choice for the rum=runner boats because they were silent, powerfull and reliable.
Pierce arrow didn't owe Ford anything, anymore than Packard did..
Pierce arrow engines in the teens and twenty's had ROLLER cam followers, that's high tech even today,
Pierce had 4 valves per cylineder in the teens through '28, and their big engine in the teens was a 825 cubic inch monster, the largest production engine in
automotive hisory,

The ONLY real thing that Ford innovated was the production line, and Pierce never used a production line, all the cars were hand made a few at a time.. THAT's why they couldn't compete after assembly line production became so common.
Ford was a genius for cutting corners, and saving cost.. for that the public got an inexpensive car that had lots of limitiations. Like a cooling system
that relied on gravity circulation, like the handfed stoves with a coil.. it had it's limitations. but Ford didn't pay for installing a waterpump in the engine either.

Packard created the Packard 120 and it was mostly line-assembled, the Classic Car Club of America does NOT recognise a Packard 120 as a Classic, it is a production car.. All Pierces and High end Packards are Classics..They are hand assembled cars to the customer's specifications.

Pierce was the only recommended repair facillity for Rolls Royce of America , made in Springfield Mass.
Pierce dyno tested every engine for every car, then assembled the car and chassis dyno'd the car/trans/ engine..

So I is fair to compare, when the bozo in the parking lot calls a Pierce or a Packard a Model T..

Sort of like calling Pieres' Bride a potbelly stove... or William's stoves the same..
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:06 pm

I see your point and agree that the Pierce can not compare to a T.

But did it have vanadium alloy. Henry ford was responsible for the first vanadium steel made in this country and used in a car.

Does the Pierce have a cylinder head? Ford again.

Extensive use of Johanson blocks and go and no go gauges.

Reliable magneto ignition, no battery needed.

Granted we are comparing a luxury car to an everyman's car but the technology behind that cheapy was not simple and included innovations beyond an assembly line.

High end quality products are always worthy of respect and admiration and the Pierce certainly is in that category.

Like the T other products I find exciting that exhibit clever technological innovation and were cheap, are the Terry clocks, the Big Ben alarm clock, the first 30 hour brass clock by Chauncey Jerome.

The Waltham Watch Co. set out to produce a mid price watch and wound up revolutionizing all production world wide with their innovations, the precision grinder and the lathe collet.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: LsFarm On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:54 pm

I mean no disrespect for Ford, but actually the Dodge brothers were the metalurgist behind Ford, untill Ford split off and stopped buying his steel and iron products from the Dodge brothers.. That's when the Dodge car was created..

The pierce had extensive use of high quality steel, Heat treated frames, for strength and lighter weight. yes they had a demountable cylinder head in the teens, and the earliest full pressure lubrication system that I know of, in 1912, but I probably just don't know of the actuall first full pressure lube automobile engine..

The Ford was a wonderful car, and for every penny Ford shaved off the production costs he shaved a penny off the sale price.. what other product continously went DOWN in price for years and years?? As it got better and better? And it did the job it was designed to do, for millions of car owners.
No doubt he made mass production the standard for the world..and made the car cheaper to own than the horse [sorry Freetown Fred :D ].

The ford created a strong, loyal following, that outlasted the car by decades, sort of like the old VW, cold, quirky, but simple to repair and pretty reliable.

The Ford also created by default the aftermarket parts and accessory industry.. There is almost no end to the innovations, accessories, modifications and improvements that were invented, produced and sold for the Ford..
The Ford also created a lot of loyalty, like the VW, mostly because of it's oddball technology. the planetary transimission, the lack of shock absorbers, poor brakes, etc these items just screamed for improvements and the yankee ingenuity found a place to make money.

Franco, you and I have lots of similar likes and respected items, I have several terry clocks as well as Chauncy Jerome's Several of the tall case clocks from the original Riley Whtting, Terry, Silas Hoadley partnership fullfilling the Porter contract for clock movements.

I LOVE the early history of our country when it comes to industry and innovation.

OK, back to stoves..

How about everyone posting a photo of their antique stove, ?? I'd love to see some more beautiful old stoves other than the tiny avitars everyone has.

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:57 pm

OK, here is a Columbian Oak stove I bought a few weeks ago. The picture is without the legs which are also nickel. Footprint is 20 inches. The lower skirt and the base cleaned up pretty well and the rest at least I have gotten rid of the rust. You will notice that it is gray porcelain enamel on the cast pieces and black on the drum. The enamel is pristine except where someone overtightened the mica holder on the door and chipped the enamel. The fire pot is 15 inches by 8 inches deep. I plan to set it up in March to try it.

Will show more pictures when it is complete. My guess is that it is from some wheres in the 1920s.
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franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: LsFarm On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:13 am

It has a good grate system,
what does the 'OAK' designation mean? I've seen it on so many different stoves, from different makers.
So does it mean it's a direct draft only? or capable of wood, anthracite and Bit coal??
OAK seems to be 'old stove code' for something.


That enamel finish is pretty rare isn't it?

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:48 am

LsFarm wrote:what does the 'OAK' designation mean?

I have to guess that it refers to this particular configuration of exposed cast fire pot with steel drum on top since the designation is used on many makes and I can't recall other designs being called oak. They seem to have come with extended flue on back as well as direct draft. Magazine was optional as was a lined fire pot. Maybe William can throw more light on this. There are probably a lot of terms that people understood then that we don't know now, even slight shifts in word meaning and brand new meanings like "gay".

I dated it later because of the porcelain which was common in many cook stoves and almost universal in the convector styles of the late 20s to the 40s and later.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: wsherrick On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:20 am

LsFarm wrote:It has a good grate system,
what does the 'OAK' designation mean? I've seen it on so many different stoves, from different makers.
So does it mean it's a direct draft only? or capable of wood, anthracite and Bit coal??
OAK seems to be 'old stove code' for something.


That enamel finish is pretty rare isn't it?

Greg L


Your description of the Pierce Arrow might convince me to change from a Packard Man to one that prefers it instead.
Anyway, an Oak Stove is by definition a direct draft stove. I believe the name came from the abbrievations that were used in telegraphing orders. If you see a stove and It says, "Oak," it is a direct draft stove that in most cases can burn either wood or coal. They are good for Bituminous Coal. The best oak stoves are those of the, "Hot Blast," variety such as Grumpy's Florence Hot Blast. Those are superlative stoves for Bituminous use. Oak stoves vary in quality from very cheap to extremely high quality. Franco's stove was made sometime in the late 20's.
wsherrick
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: nortcan On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:51 pm

franco b wrote:OK, here is a Columbian Oak stove I bought a few weeks ago. The picture is without the legs which are also nickel. Footprint is 20 inches. The lower skirt and the base cleaned up pretty well and the rest at least I have gotten rid of the rust. You will notice that it is gray porcelain enamel on the cast pieces and black on the drum. The enamel is pristine except where someone overtightened the mica holder on the door and chipped the enamel. The fire pot is 15 inches by 8 inches deep. I plan to set it up in March to try it.

Will show more pictures when it is complete. My guess is that it is from some wheres in the 1920s.


Nice one Franco, we don't see many enameled coal stoves on this Continent. Don't forget the other photos...
nortcan
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Stuart,Peterson/ Grander
Stove/Furnace Model: Sunnyside/ Golden Bride

Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: stovehospital On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:29 pm

The Oak type stove started with P. D. Beckwith back in 1870. It has a cast firepot and usually a sheet iron upper section. They come in direct draft and also came with a heat exchanger on the back or extention can above, or both. Yours has triangular grates for hard coal. DO NOT use it without putting a liner in it. Thye refractory protects the firepot and reflects heat back into the fire which helps maintain the temp needed for coal to burn. Firepots are hard to find because so many have been used and abused by not having the liner.
stovehospital
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 250 stoves in barns
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Re: Do you like your ANTIQUE stove?

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:55 pm

Thought this was interesting because it shows, as stove hospital has pointed out the various options available.
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franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Visit Hitzer Stoves