How are my radiators plumbed???

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jim d On: Sat Jan 07, 2012 12:54 am

sting i didn't realize he was mixing radiation cu fin & ci rads sorry about that i just assumed that he was using the existing radiation and just splitting off three rads into a seperate zone , and the dead mechanics already figured the heat loss , and the home appears to be heatig well , well it looks pretty easy to me
jim d
 
Stove/Furnace Make: alaska//coaljck
Stove/Furnace Model: liberty// cj3

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jaimz23 On: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:34 am

Sting wrote:back of the bar napkin drawing ---- I would put the new radiation on its own loop with full temperature water and build a temperature reducing loop to feed the existing two zones- but with out a proper heat loss calculation and specifics of the floor materials you want to warm -- well your throwing the dice

that works too!


Sting, when you say to feed the "existing 2 zones" in this part of your response, I am a bit confused. If I put the new radiation in it's own loop with full temp water then build a temp. reducing loop, there will be only one zone left. I am not sure if I am confused or you are with what I am trying to accomplish. I will end up with 2 zones total as I only have 1 right now.. Maybe a very simple circle and line drawing offered by you to explain what you mean would help if I am not understanding correctly. I have been looking through my books that you recommended last year, ("Pumping Away" and "Primary Secondary Pumping Made Easy!") and they are good, but they don't really offer a lot if you are attempting to add another zone into a reverse return system.

Thanks
jaimz23
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jaimz23 On: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:44 am

jim d wrote:sting i didn't realize he was mixing radiation cu fin & ci rads sorry about that i just assumed that he was using the existing radiation and just splitting off three rads into a seperate zone , and the dead mechanics already figured the heat loss , and the home appears to be heatig well , well it looks pretty easy to me



Jim, I am using the existing radiation and splitting off the back 3 radiators into a separate zone. You are absolutely correct on this. However, what I forgot to put into my newer drawings was that the 2 radiators in the kitchen are copper fin tube radiators. The rest of the house is all cast iron radiators of varying size. The people that owned the house before me remodeled the kitchen and put the copper fin radiators in there for aesthetics, I guess instead of keeping the existing C.I. rads. The 2 copper fin tube baseboards will be left in the existing zone.
jaimz23
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260


Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jim d On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:45 am

is the heat fairly well ballanced with the system the way it is now , temp wise, because the convectors don't hold the heat as long as ci rads do ,if so there shouldn't be a problem
jim d
 
Stove/Furnace Make: alaska//coaljck
Stove/Furnace Model: liberty// cj3

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jaimz23 On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:47 am

The heat is fairly well balanced except for the back 3 rooms and especially the back bedroom. (Top right of drawing) There it is approximately 5 degrees cooler than the rest of the house. Also, in the future, my wife and I are hoping to have a little one and will need to run new radiators/plumbing upstairs to the 2 bedrooms that don't have it. So this would basically be my way to figure out how it should be done properly.

As a example, my wife was in the back bedroom tonight watching t.v. and came out and said how much nicer it was out in the living room. This is why I was hoping to be able to put a independent zone back there.

I know this is completely off topic, but I have to ask. Can you also tell me why when my house circulator kicks on to warm the radiators, my coal boiler water temp goes from 180 to 140? This is a huge drop and should not happen. i see it all the time when I am down there. Is it possible that the pipes in the crawl space are not insulated enough? That and the amount of pipe it has to go through only being one zone?

Thanks
jaimz23
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:25 am

jaimz23 wrote:I know this is completely off topic, but I have to ask. Can you also tell me why when my house circulator kicks on to warm the radiators, my coal boiler water temp goes from 180 to 140? This is a huge drop and should not happen. i see it all the time when I am down there. Is it possible that the pipes in the crawl space are not insulated enough? That and the amount of pipe it has to go through only being one zone?

In older homes that use large diameter pipes and cast iron radiators, it isn't that uncommon for this to occur. The reason is simply the quantity of water in the pipes is much larger than with 3/4" copper. When the pump starts, the hot water in the boiler is quickly replaced with a massive quantity of cooler water from the pipes and radiators. There are several ways to solve this, the best of which would be modulating the heat through a tempering valve. Instead of starting and stopping the pump, it would throttle the heat as the pump runs continuously. This would provide a very even temp, reduce drafts and go easier on your boiler.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:27 am

A bypass piped between the boiler's supply and return header would also help correct the problem.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:58 am

Rob R. wrote:A bypass piped between the boiler's supply and return header would also help correct the problem.

It would also take longer to satisfy the thermostat on a call for heat, the temperature swings from high to low would increase significantly. Like I said, there are many ways to deal with the problem. Some solutions will have negative impacts to your comfort level.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:28 pm

coaledsweat wrote:
Rob R. wrote:A bypass piped between the boiler's supply and return header would also help correct the problem.

It would also take longer to satisfy the thermostat on a call for heat, the temperature swings from high to low would increase significantly. Like I said, there are many ways to deal with the problem. Some solutions will have negative impacts to your comfort level.


I don't want to hijack this thread, but I don't understand your comment about the temperature swings from a bypass. In my experience, a properly installed bypass tempers the water leaving the boiler...reducing boiler shock, pipe expansion noise, and allows for longer circulator run times...and less thermostat setpoint overshoots. I agree that there are different ways to handle a high-mass system, but it just seemed odd that my experience with bypass piping was so much different than your description.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jim d On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:44 pm

or you could leave the piping the way it is and put a zone valve either electric 24 v or chemical , wire less, on each rad and run the circ 24 7 with the tt pulling in the stoker and w/ a low limit maintaining a certain temp 140 or so , also w/. a bypass you don't get condensation to solidify the fly ash & pluug up the tubes in the boiler
jim d
 
Stove/Furnace Make: alaska//coaljck
Stove/Furnace Model: liberty// cj3

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: jaimz23 On: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:22 pm

I was thinking of doing a bypass valve. The only reason, is that with my system, I have a circulator between the boilers to keep the oil boiler water temp. satisfied and I found that I had to choke it off a bit because it was opening the C.V. on the house circ. and causing the rads to get hot water all the time making my house unbearable on the warmer days. So I closed off the ball valve by that circulator a little bit and it fixed my problem. So basically I would rather do a tempering pipe between the boiler supply/return if needed. Any suggestions of size pipe to use and should I get a tempering valve also to adjust water flow? My supply and return pipes where I would do this are 1".

Also, I know I hijacked my own thread, but are we still of the agreement that the piping Diagram I have for a new zone for my house would work?

Thanks again everyone. I don't know where I would be without this forum.
jaimz23
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Burnham Boiler/Harman Trident
Stove/Furnace Model: V-13A/SF-260

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:12 pm

jaimz23 wrote:Can you also tell me why when my house circulator kicks on to warm the radiators, my coal boiler water temp goes from 180 to 140?

Want to hear an extreme example of that? My brother built a large 3+ bay garage with heat in the floor slab, plumbed from his outdoor wood boiler. When he first opened the valves to the slab, the boiler water temp dropped to about 80 degrees and stayed there for over a day.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:15 pm

Buried in the forum threads,are many examples of unbalanced wet systems. We also have often discussed pipe sizes and flow rates of those pipes - hoping -- advising --folks to use large enough pipe to carry the energy produced by the boiler. In this case, its the opposite - the flow rates are overwhelming the make-up capacity.

Do a search for System Balance!

Running a boiler for a day at below condensing temperature - well you may as well drill holes in it. :oops:
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: Rob R. On: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:42 pm

rberq wrote:When he first opened the valves to the slab, the boiler water temp dropped to about 80 degrees and stayed there for over a day.


hmmm, seems like his controls and pumping strategy needs to go back to the drawing board. I can only imagine the dripping creosote inside that wood boiler.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: How are my radiators plumbed???

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:09 pm

Rob R. wrote:
rberq wrote:When he first opened the valves to the slab, the boiler water temp dropped to about 80 degrees and stayed there for over a day.

hmmm, seems like his controls and pumping strategy needs to go back to the drawing board. I can only imagine the dripping creosote inside that wood boiler.

It was cold when he brought the garage on line. It was just a tremendous heat sink. Once the slab came up to temperature, all was OK.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane