KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:02 pm

Now we are getting somewhere...
If the return is staying hot...
It is not giving up the btu's to the house...
Lack of air flow under the baseboard will do that...
Are the carpets staying...
The baseboard units will have to be moved up...
Do you have a room to test this in...
Or a room in which the carpet is being removed/replaced...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: whistlenut On: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:49 pm

I'm right there with the carpets choking off the meager air exchange. We install all baseboard up an addition 3/4" 'just because'. If it ends up being too high we add a piece of finished base under the baseboard.

I'm betting real money that if you are able to raise the baseboards 3/4", the airflow will return and the system will work just fine. I'll bet the dickheads used nails and not screws to attach the panels...so go easy on the sheet rock!
I know about the 180 water exchange, but 160 will get there, just not as fast. 140 will also, just go get a coffee and relax. 120 will provide heat also.

It's like the tortoise and the hare, and most of us old farts know that slow and steady wins every single time. Life is not a drag race.....although that would be good while it lasted. :idea: :shock: :roll:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: kstills On: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:48 pm

Reading this thread reminds me again of how great this forum is. :)
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: Townsend On: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:35 pm

kstills wrote:Reading this thread reminds me again of how great this forum is. :)


X2
Townsend
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Coal Size/Type: Pea / Buck

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: steamup On: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:59 pm

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Red Flag alert!

2800 sq ft house under remodel (older house no doubt)...
Didn't do a heat loss...
Uses a tank load of oil per month..
Doesn't know the input of the existing oil boiler...


STOP RIGHT NOW!!!! or buy a very big bottle of asprin.

Never mind if the K-4 can handle 200 Deg. F water (it can). I doubt the K-4 is big enough to handle your house.

Do some sort of heat loss to get know your load.

Do a simple diagram of the system piping.

Figure out the output of your existing base board.

Figure out where the problems exist before you create more problems and waste money.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: beatle78 On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:58 pm

Ok, I've been out of town. I'll check the carpeting(it's not staying during the remodel).

I'll do a heat loss (what tool do you guys recommend for that?)

One thing I noticed was that all the baseboard dampers were closed upstairs. I opened all of them & that seems to be better. I blame my kids for that :)

One the downstairs loop, they loopbacked the loop and ran the copper right where the damper is. You cannot open or close the damper. Talk about no air flow, grrrrrr.

House was a small shack w/ attached garage on a slab built in the 30's. They built the "house" in 1986.

The house will be much more airtight & efficient after the remodel.
beatle78
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: Dennis On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:25 pm

beatle78 wrote:One the downstairs loop, they loopbacked the loop and ran the copper right where the damper is. You cannot open or close the damper. Talk about no air flow, grrrrrr.


I had to do that with my second floor baseboard and ran the return loop underneath and wired the loop to the supports. They work fine with plenty of heat and dampers work fine.
Dennis
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: AHS/WOC55-multi-fuel/wood,oil,coal
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/stove size

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:33 pm

I've done the 'loopback' pipe routing before too, sometimes it's easier than any other way of plumbing it.
I've run it above and below the finned tube, depends on the design of the baseboard and damper.

I'll bet the dampers closed and some DIRTY fins are most of the problem.. I have to vacuum my fins in the old section of the house
each year at least, dog hair and dust seem to appear from nowhere.
Maybe it's my hair and lack of housekeeping skills/ambition?? :shock: :lol:

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: steamup On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:36 pm

beatle78 wrote:Ok, I've been out of town. I'll check the carpeting(it's not staying during the remodel).

I'll do a heat loss (what tool do you guys recommend for that?)

One thing I noticed was that all the baseboard dampers were closed upstairs. I opened all of them & that seems to be better. I blame my kids for that :)

One the downstairs loop, they loopbacked the loop and ran the copper right where the damper is. You cannot open or close the damper. Talk about no air flow, grrrrrr.

House was a small shack w/ attached garage on a slab built in the 30's. They built the "house" in 1986.

The house will be much more airtight & efficient after the remodel.



There are several heat loss calculators on the web. Follow this link to a spread sheet that I put together as an option: What's your heat loss?

Dampers will reduce output considerably. Pipe above the element won't be too negative as long as the damper is open. Pipe gives off heat too.

Air infiltration is your worst enemy for heat loss.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: Dennis On: Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:12 pm

beatle78 wrote:One the downstairs loop, they loopbacked the loop and ran the copper right where the damper is. You cannot open or close the damper. Talk about no air flow, grrrrrr.


Can you remove the damper this winter then fix when heating season is over. You will atleast get heat without shuting down the system
Dennis
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: AHS/WOC55-multi-fuel/wood,oil,coal
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/stove size

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: Sting On: Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:09 pm

beatle78 wrote:3. Good question. I don't have an infared thermometer & there is no probe on each loop. I can tell you this, I can burn my hand on the return temps, lol :lol:


that doesn't cut the mustard -- it just hurts

your delta T could still be right - but its doesn't appear to be -- do the test correctly and you will know if the radiation is blocked - if the flow is wrong- or if the radiation is simply overwhelmed by the load - running a residential boiler at those hi temps is just foolish at best

Get your answer - stop guessing
lots of folks will help you guess or tell you what they "think"
I don't think - I am simply a figment of the public internet telling you without cream and sugar to test
The necessary tool isn''t expensive - and is very useful for other things
but - my opinion and 3 bucks will only get you a hit at Starbucks
Kind Regards
Sting
Going back to lay by my dish like a bad dog now :oops:
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: steamup On: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:17 am

Sting wrote:that doesn't cut the mustard -- it just hurts



In other words, any temperature 140 deg. F. or above burns the skin instantly. Human thermometers we are not.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: beatle78 On: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:13 pm

Update: The carpet seems to be OK. About 1" between carpet and fin tubes.

The piping for the new boiler hookup is done. I'll post pics soon.

I do have air infiltration. In the downstairs LR I put rigit foam board up for insulation until we know what we're doing it that room. There are gaps around some beams in the cathedral ceiling that you can feel air flow. I've taped about 1/2 the seams. I need to stuff insulation in the gaps and finish taping.

The upstairs rooms that's been gutted that I mentioned earlier has 41' of baseboard in it! That's fintube, not blanks. I'm sure I was losing a ton of BTU's heating that room!

We have not had any cold weather. I did not do a thorough check on the lint in the fintubes. That will be next.
beatle78
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker KA-4

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:11 pm

There are gaps around some beams in the cathedral ceiling that you can feel air flow. I've taped about 1/2 the seams. I need to stuff insulation in the gaps and finish taping.

Use spray foam...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: KA-4 New house, poor design, requires over 200F baseboard!

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:45 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:
There are gaps around some beams in the cathedral ceiling that you can feel air flow. I've taped about 1/2 the seams. I need to stuff insulation in the gaps and finish taping.

Use spray foam...



I'll add an emphasis to this USE SPRAY FOAM !!!!

it's the only effective way to seal cracks and insulate in odd shaped corners, joints, seams etc.. fiberglass stops the conduction of heat through an airspace but does NOTHING for stopping the infiltration or insulation of moving air.. for fiberglass to work, the airspace must be sealed and no air moving.

Greg
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Visit Lehigh Anthracite