Yellow Fly Ash and Really Bad Burn Temps in Godin 3720

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kstone
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Post by kstone » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 12:28 pm

I have done a quick search of the forums for ( yellow fly ash) and I get result off yellow flame color threads and few on ash disposal and fly ash in chimney's

Ok the Temperature on the stove went way down, reading's before off 5' and 6' now 3' and 2'

Thing that have changed
1,It got really cold around here so draft went up but there is a barometric installed ( .04 to .05 )reading taken @ foot half below damper .

2, changed from nut to pea coal same supplier ( the Franco Belge loves the pea)

3, there was 2 bags I had gotten from another store it was the bags with Santa on front nut sized

Is there a color chart or guide to fly ash like diesel smoke Blue is oil, White is low temperature incomplete combustion, Black is to much fuel with good or high temperatures.

I don't know the flame color because it a Godin design I can tell you the coal I could see in the grate were bright red and fully glowing the stove did not go out. I did stop filling the stove and the fire has burned all the way below both ports.The stove temperatures are back to 5'6'7' at different spots. I can see the top off the bed is now glowing red and the entire bed is burning. I have filled the stove back up to just below the top port it seem ok bye temperatures will wait to see what happens with the ash color. both of the ports are free the bottom port is round and has two cast iron nubs blocking the port the top port is more rectangle with no blocking devices.

I s the pea to small ? did I block a port and not know it ? I did plunge from the top with a 1/4 metal rod many times over 2 days off these conditions so don't think it bridged, but it could have been partial bridged ? anyone have any thought's

Thank you

 
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KaptJaq
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Post by KaptJaq » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 1:19 pm

Hi Kstone,

Do you know which coal was in the stove when you got the yellow fly ash? The "Santa" bags (probably Blaschak) ? The new pea? I have been burning Blaschak in a Godin for a number of years and it is usually a pretty good low sulfa, moderate ash coal. If the yellow fly ash and low temps are a one time occurrence I would not worry about it. Coal varies in ash content even within the same bag. It was probably just a bad streak of coal. Yellow usually indicates sulfa, was there an odor also?

Based on what I see in the manual your stove can burn either pea or nut. It recommends pea if you have a good draft and nut for weaker drafts. What I have noticed is that the pea clogs up a little easier and I have to shake the stove more often. This may be why your temps dropped so much. Since the nut has larger air gaps it burns easier but, if you have a strong draft, it can get away from you quicker. Get used to burning the pea size and you will probably not have any more problems.

KaptJaq

 
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kstone
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Post by kstone » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 1:41 pm

Thank you Kapt. as for what was in there both. I was trying to find pea for the franco, as both off these stoves are new to me I have been trying to determine what I need to burn before buying in ton's. so I buy 6 or so bag's at a time. Yes I did notice the smell outside the house but it coincided with the cold snap. So was it more load on the stoves more exhaust volume up the chimney's. or bad Godin? don't know. The franco seem to be on auto pilot on pea size so I will go and get some more and try to get the godin to like the new size I will keep you all posted on results.

Thank you

 
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KaptJaq
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Post by KaptJaq » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 3:43 pm

Probably not a "bad Godin". They are very basic stoves, very little can go wrong with them. As long as it has not been over heated too often and the seals/bricks are still in good shape it should burn well. What size stove pipe/ flue do you have? How long is it? I think that stove has a 110 mm outlet. I usually see them with 5 inch pipe. Too big a pipe can reduce your draft. It will take too much energy to heat the pipe enough to get a strong draft. Maybe you setup just needs nut size coal?

KaptJaq


 
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Post by franco b » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 4:56 pm

Pea coal will require more air and I think you should stick with nut for the stove.

It is very important that you fill the stove well above the front grate as air can bypass the coal at this point.

If you also wish to use nut in the Franco you will have to set the hopper on top of the supports. Above the top notch.

 
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kstone
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Post by kstone » Wed. Jan. 18, 2012 6:11 pm

Kapt. thank the stove set up is 4 inch from stove to chimney 5 plus feet total length with a barometric damper installed @ 4 feet from stove in 4 inch pipe the chimney port is 6 inches so there is a 6 inch 90 with 6 to 4 reducer. The stove it self seems in good shape no overheating tell tales the lower refractory is in good shape few goobers on inside off refractory but no cracks the upper looks new or hardly used has black sheen to it but very smooth the cast iron does not look warped or melted at all the sheet metal skin is in good shape no rust but could use some stove paint in off season. no MPD in this set up others have said they have one installed. The barometric is set to flutter at .04 at .05 it open @ 1/3 way.

Franco the franco belge loves the pea coal still have the grate/hopper setting for nut but will lower on next shut down. What is really nice is the pea flows threw the stove so much better no hangups. The Godin can pull a full .1 off inch with barometric damper held shut burning wood and cardboard. seems there is enough draft there for the stove.I don't know how much draft I will need for full load off pea coal? the manual on the Franco belge says it likes pea coal but will burn from nut down to rice. don't know what the Godin manual says.

Thank you

 
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Post by SteveZee » Fri. Jan. 20, 2012 9:53 am

I think you'll Definitely need a MPD in that Godin or you'll be sending allot of your heat up the chimney. They are a simple primitive design and need that "throttle".

 
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KaptJaq
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Post by KaptJaq » Fri. Jan. 20, 2012 11:20 am

kstone wrote:Kapt. thank the stove set up is 4 inch from stove to chimney 5 plus feet total length with a barometric damper installed @ 4 feet from stove in 4 inch pipe the chimney port is 6 inches so there is a 6 inch 90 with 6 to 4 reducer. The stove it self seems in good shape no overheating tell tales the lower refractory is in good shape few goobers on inside off refractory but no cracks the upper looks new or hardly used has black sheen to it but very smooth the cast iron does not look warped or melted at all the sheet metal skin is in good shape no rust but could use some stove paint in off season. no MPD in this set up others have said they have one installed. The barometric is set to flutter at .04 at .05 it open @ 1/3 way.

Franco the franco belge loves the pea coal still have the grate/hopper setting for nut but will lower on next shut down. What is really nice is the pea flows threw the stove so much better no hangups. The Godin can pull a full .1 off inch with barometric damper held shut burning wood and cardboard. seems there is enough draft there for the stove.I don't know how much draft I will need for full load off pea coal? the manual on the Franco belge says it likes pea coal but will burn from nut down to rice. don't know what the Godin manual says.

Thank you
Sounds like you might not have enough draft to burn full loads of pea in the Godin. As I mentioned earlier the manual for your stove (available in French at http://www.godin.fr) says you can burn pea or nut coal. It suggests pea if you have a strong draft and nut if you have a weaker draft. After the 5 feet of 4" pipe what kind of flue is it?

A paper/cardboard/wood fire can be hotter than a steady state coal fire and can cause a stronger draft. The reading you are getting with the cardboard/wood fire is probably higher than when you are burning coal.

As SteveZee said a MPD is probably a good idea with this type stove. When you have time to monitor the stove you might want to try burning with the baro covered to see how she burns.

KaptJaq

Edited for spelling errors and clarity.


 
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kstone
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Post by kstone » Tue. Jan. 24, 2012 5:03 pm

Just an update after a full shut down and cool off I have found some refractory missing looks like a repaired section has fallen off and may have been the yellow ash in the smoke pipe ?

1, can I use furnace cement full thickness ( 3000 f ) or should I get piece off Kawool then furnace cement on surface off wool ?

2 The design off these Godins do they live bye the KISS rule or are they really just a pipe stove ? seems with the full fire brick liner and the ceramic wick for secondary combustion air and the 2 exhaust ports. I wonder if there design is a little slight off hand , looks simple but really thought out well?

Thank you

 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Jan. 24, 2012 7:46 pm

kstone wrote: I wonder if there design is a little slight off hand , looks simple but really thought out well?
If it is thought out well the thought is not for burning anthracite. There is really no secondary air. Part of the primary air is sent to the top which has the further effect of bypassing the coal bed. This might work fairly well with the brown coal and lignite of Europe with the primary air fairly wide open but for the air restricted mode of operation used in burning anthracite it is not good.

The grate system of most models does not cover the entire bottom so clearing ash is very hard to do yet it is imperative to get red coals to the very bottom of the grate, otherwise more and more unburnt coal will accumulate there and finally jam the shaker. Shaking alone will not do it and the ash has to be stabbed through and under the front grate.

The practice of feeding air to both the front and bottom grates results in a front to back burn pattern and bridging of the coal, so a poke from the top is necessary. Getting enough ash out is so difficult that some have resorted to lowering the front grate and shoveling it out, carefully timing it to avoid a shower of red hot coal out the front.

The exit from the stove has the flue gas going down and then out creating an exit point for fly ash to accumulate and potentially block the exit.

People like the stove and they are handsome, so they must be willing to put up with the shortcomings which are many including a laughably small ash pan with a carrying handle so loose that the pan wobbles from side to side while carrying.

 
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Post by KaptJaq » Tue. Jan. 24, 2012 11:24 pm

Kstone, I would use a high temp Castable Refractory to repair the damage. Make sure the refractory can be in contact with metal, some cannot until they are cured. Also make sure you properly cure it. Too hot too fast and it will crumble.

Franco, I agree that these were not designed as anthracite burners. The basic design was created in France a long time ago. When I am in France and and visit stove shops I hear them referred to as "trash burners", in other words they will burn anything. They do what they were designed for fairly well. If the fuel you scrounge can burn, put it in the stove and it will heat your home.

In the mountains of south central France my wife's grandmother's summer house is heated with 5 Godins when it is used in the winter. Two grands & three petites. I have seen them throw charcoal, hard coal, soft coal, peat, wood and just about anything else that burns into those stoves and it burns. As designed.

That said I have never seen any multi-fuel stove that is good with every fuel that it can burn. I have owned Godin stoves and burned anthracite in them since 1989. Once I got used to them I have had few problems. I tend to them twice a day and get good, consistent heat for the 12 hour burn period. I find the less I fiddle with it the better it burns. The ash pan is big enough for 12 hours worth of ash and does not wobble with the Godin handle. Klinkers are totally coal quality dependent. Yes the grate could be better so I augment it with a piece of 3/8 drill rod through the clean out gate when I need to.

The stove I have now was originally installed in 1969, imported directly from France. At that time there were few radiant coal stoves manufactured here. The stove was abandoned in 1989, painted with rustolium, and shoved in a corner as a decorative piece. In 1999 when I bought the house, I dragged it outside, heated it up to burn off the paint, then put it back into service. I burn about 2 tons a year and am very happy with it.

 
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Post by franco b » Tue. Jan. 24, 2012 11:36 pm

KaptJaq wrote: I burn about 2 tons a year and am very happy with it.
As I said a lot of people are happy with the stove and find workarounds for the drawbacks and they are good looking. It looks like yours is the large round.

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