building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: LsFarm On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:39 pm

I'd do this:

Run the hot water and map the pex locations.
Cut core sample holes as suggested, inspect the core of concrete, and check for well compressed substrate sand/gravel.
Drill 4-6 similar cores, fill with concrete filled tubes, make these pilings part of a pad supporting the chimney..

OR go with whistlenut's suggestion, just put the chimney on an outside wall and live with the compromises of a non-central chimney.

OR if you feel lucky, just put up the chimney..

When I poured my heated slab in my 40'x60' shop, I made two pads, with deeper concrete and extra rebar. I think the pads are 8" deep and the
rest of the floor 5-6" thick. I used 5bag mix and wire reinforcing mesh to tie the tubing down and to create the grid of tubing.
On these pads i installed my above ground car/truck hoist, I've had 12K on the hoist several times.

IF you spread out the load, as suggested you will have a lot of surface area to carry the load, and as suggested, figure out how much your chimney will
weigh.

If the core samples and your heat map show you have good substrate, and wire in the concrete, then you probably are good to go with setting the chimney
on the concrete floor..

What is the objection to an external chimney or one on the outside wall??

Greg L
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LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:47 pm

whistlenut wrote:All good ideas, Eddie. However YOU don't know what is under the floor.
It appears that there is ledge close to the surface, but it never is level, so drilling and pinning is an option IF you saw-cut the center section where the new chimney would go.

The interior loop heating area lost is no big deal, but as I look at the structure (man, I'd love to have that one!), the gables are the only logical spots IF you would construct an outside chimney.
The lower side is the logical one, because you could have the chimney with 2 or 3 flues, look terrific, and have a flue on each floor.
Structurally, digging to ledge or digging to solid soil is possible, frost walls on a big reinforced steel footing is VERY cost effective, and building the chimney is straight forward.
I understand the desire to go internal here, but saw cutting, demo, excavation, re-pouring won't be cheap either. The 'outside solution' causes NO interruption in the plans for the inside either.
Personally I 'dislike' SS chimneys and at 45.00 a foot plus installation.......nuff said.
This in Maine; coastal Maine.....this is a permanent thing, AND masonry will allow for more than one flue.....at a small cost. I'll go snap a few pics of SS installs locally where they have 4500.00 in parts. OUCH!!!
A nice looking building deserves a nice looking chimney. Core a couple holes for the flues through the existing foundation, and clean-outs can be outside.
Masons are slow around here, keep you ear to the ground Tonto, something good is coming your way.
My thoughts on the floor touching the perimeter....and related heat loss.....well, lets just say you are heating with coal, and it won't make any difference.
The thermal mass you will have in this structure will just amaze you. If it were NG or Propane.....well, you are not that foolish.
I hear you are working on a couple hi=tech 'canoes' up there.....probably in a heated shop.....grrrrrrrrrrrr.

My other thought is that the chimney on the lower side would allow VERY easy access to coal storage, mechanical room, etc. and keep any associated mess off the living area. :idea: :!:


W.N.,The boat shop is heated with FIVE oil boilers with a radiant floor...68*F all winter. :shock:

Back to the little barn .....I spent the afternoon with a good friend. HIs company sets up rack & shelf systems in very large buildings....Anyway on the average install they bore over 3,000 holes in heated poured floors to fasten the shelf & rack systems down. He told me that they usualy hit pex tubing five to six times on each job. They have a way to splice the damaged pex.

theo wrote:If your going to go through all the trouble and cost of a block chimney do it right,,,,, pour a footer for it to set on. Youll be glad you did in the end. :D


If the deal goes through, looks very good at this point, we will cut the floor, dig & set up for a large footer.
My friend will fix the pex and we will be good to go....

Thanks for all of the great ideas !!!!

Eddie
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PC 12-47E
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Estate Heatrola, Jotul 507

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: theo On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:17 pm

Nice man cave,,,, very nice ! :up:
theo
 
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:59 pm

That is a great solution, and since this is not your first visit to the rodeo, you have covered your 'fanny' well. you should have the saw cut guys make it light enough to get out with regular sized equipment.
No need to stick a 325 boom in there.
I AM going to make a road trip when this one is going on I'd love to see how they repair the damaged piping.
Necessity is the 'mutha' of invention! I have gotta see the 'Canoe' as it progresses. Heck, the water is still warm enough to bale in!

I haven't heard of North Woods Bob freezing this year. Wonder if his wife has figured out just how much coal really saves? :idea: :!:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: theo On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:00 pm

One other thought , I know that this is a bunch of BULL, I wanted to heat my garage with a stoker stove and was talking to a few buddies about it and they seem to think that the Ins. Company would have an issue about that. I dont know what laws your state may have but have you thought about that? I did not check with my ins. company as i am not heating my garage with coal, i use a oil furnace when i want heat. Something about " solid fuel heaters " It's crazy and maybe not even true but you might want to check on this first before you go through all the work. You might be ok in your state or you may have to rethink your plans.
theo
 
Stove/Furnace Make: LL
Stove/Furnace Model: Hyfire 2

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:19 pm

theo wrote:One other thought , I know that this is a bunch of BULL, I wanted to heat my garage with a stoker stove and was talking to a few buddies about it and they seem to think that the Ins. Company would have an issue about that. I dont know what laws your state may have but have you thought about that? I did not check with my ins. company as i am not heating my garage with coal, i use a oil furnace when i want heat. Something about " solid fuel heaters " It's crazy and maybe not even true but you might want to check on this first before you go through all the work. You might be ok in your state or you may have to rethink your plans.


Good point....My last insurance agent told me to keep my mouth shut about how I heat the house. ;)
The game plan will be to turn the barn into a house.... 8-)
PC 12-47E
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Estate Heatrola, Jotul 507

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: theo On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:24 pm

:D
theo
 
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: whistlenut On: Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:15 pm

I sure would sleep better knowing coal was heating my home than a 12K condensing propane boiler! Eddie, I also like Greg's proposal (Hell,he started the damned rodeo and has been lucky enough to not have broken too many bones)....map out the pex grid (should be 12" OC in the middle, however who knows if they made criss-cross diagonal runs where you want the chimney. If you can locate the the grid, I'd core as large a hole as you could in a grid pattern between the layout you find, remove the sand/gravel/stone under the slab area with a post hole digger until your blisters bleed,(or if yuo know a guy with a Vactor Truck, no blisters) then install L rebar down to terra firma through those holes and pour a 4000 lb pea stone mix and use a vibrator to consolidate the incoming crete. That will make multiple piers that are reinforced and support whatever void you create while digging the grid out. If you stay inside, this will work VERY well, be cost effective and perhaps you will never touch a pex line.

4000 PSI structural columns, assuming a 3000 or 3500 psi floor....perhaps 1/4" 6" by 6" mesh, perhaps #10 mesh...... When we do sono-tubes, we pour a 2' by 2' footing, add 4 'j's 12"l's by 3' long, tie 6" 3/8" hoops at 12" OC vertically, and I can assure you it they want to move that little tube later it will come out as a unit. You can hit it with a dozer or excavator,and it will stay there. Anyone out there ever seem tubes poured the correct way.....didn't think so. This is residential and lite commercial'
Commercial is #7 bar 6" OC and # 5 hoops 6" OC. dynamite will fracture it but not remove it.........so I think you have the solution at hand. Get some antifreeze piped through it if you are doing it this time of year, or wait for warmer weather. The coring guys aren't real busy for the next 8 weeks. :idea:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
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Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: LsFarm On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:59 am

Sure seems a shame to put a big mass of concrete in the middle of that nice clear-span shop area.. unless that 's gonna become a living room. or ??

Greg L
LsFarm
 
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:52 am

I would build a exterior two flue masonry chimney from the ground up on rear (lowest level). One flue for the basement one for the upper level. I would move the garage door and attic window so I could put the chimney at the gable peak, or at least as close as possible. Or move the people door. I would also select a location for coal bin that could be loaded from the top. Maybe a long narrow one that would gravity shoot coal to the lower level. Dump from a truck or trailer right into the bin and feed the coal into a lower level stoker boiler.
Yanche
 
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: Den034071 On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:09 am

First of all I'm an active bricklayer for 44 years. You'r chimney should be built outside the garage.

1. Dig footer outside per your frost depth which is a state requirement., & fill hole with concrete up to grass level.
2. Make footer size twice as wide as intended chimney size. Use redimix, much faster.
3. Use 4" hollow block, much easier to handle.
4. Make chimney perimeter in 16" increments, that way you'll have less cutting of block, such as 48"X20" should hold 3 8X8 flues.
5. Insulate around flues with "Perlite pouring insulation"'.
6. Seal flues with stove cement, where they come together.
7. Tie to structure every 3 rows with "Wall Ties" available at brick co.
8. You can do this, but it would be much easier with a helper.
9. If you special order maroon red mortar cement, you can stucco chimney & have a close match to your siding, otherwise use type N mortar with a ratio of 1 shovel cement to 2 shovels sand.
If you nedd more info send an evening message & I'll gladly answer your questions.
It really isn't too difficult, you can do this! It will draft like a rocket ship.
Den034071
Den034071
 
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Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:45 pm

Another basement solution is...
Place the chimney closer to the 'front' of the house, err Barn...
This would give 24 or more feet for the drive under...
Now if you are planning on constructing a second building that will be the man cave/shop...
The make the house, err Barn symmetrical and pleasing to the eye... ;)
CapeCoaler
 
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Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: PC 12-47E On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:51 pm

CapeCoaler wrote:Another basement solution is...
Place the chimney closer to the 'front' of the house, err Barn...
This would give 24 or more feet for the drive under...

This is a better option than having the chimney on the outside of the building. :idea:
A block chimney scabbed on the outside of a building looks like a big hunk of blue cheese on the top of a wedding cake. :sick: :flush: :down:

The building has underground power from Centeral Maine Power & town water. So far so good.....
The water line was installed to the Water Co. specs back in 2004 but never turned on. So we ask, what is needed to turn the water on? The lady at the Water Co. tells us that the 250' line will have to be "dug up" to see if it was installed properly. The job was done in 2004 by the best dirt contractor in the area.

I told the real estate broker, "that just lowered the value of the building by the cost of a new well........
PC 12-47E
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Estate Heatrola, Jotul 507

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:02 pm

Or find the pictures of the install...
They did take pictures...
What no inspection when the line was put in?
So how much land goes with the 'cough, cough' Barn...
Will the drive under be used as a shop?
Is there to be a second Barn...
Will this be a stop on the 'underground coal railroad'...
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: building a block chimney over a radiant poured floor

PostBy: 009to090 On: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:03 pm

PC 12-47E wrote:The water line was installed to the Water Co. specs back in 2004 but never turned on.
the 250' line will have to be "dug up" to see if it was installed properly. The job was done in 2004 by the best dirt contractor in the area.

No need to dig it up, just pull the permit from the town! I would fight that request....
Yep, might as well dig a well, then dig up that water line, but thats a very deep subject :mrgreen: :angel: :up:
009to090
 
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