Vigilant Multi Fuel Problems

springer · Post by **springer** » Mon. Feb. 06, 2012 5:08 pm

1st post lurked for a while . My 1985 VC works great with wood but not so with coal I get a nice hot bed of coal burning griddle top around 500 .I then shut the damper down a little settles at about 400. Runs like this till I go to bed , get up to a cool house stove is just barley lite and there is plenty of unused coal. I hit it with a few pieces of wood and it goes great. Using nut coal, this is the first year with this stove had a King coal stove ( Ashley knockoff )for 15 years that worked great with coal just couldn't get any parts for it . I have checked the seals while running no air being sucked except a few little spots on the flue joints.Just a little air getting in at the glass bottoms but the manual shows no gasket there

I know the stove calls for a 8 inch pipe but I have a 6 inch Metelbestos installed already and its over 28 ft tall. Could this be the problem? I can overfire the stove very easily with wood if I don't watch it.

rewinder · Post by **rewinder** » Mon. Feb. 06, 2012 5:20 pm

My stoves are older, so I have to ask, is your VIg fitted with a hopper, and do the grates rotate/rock when you move the handle? Are there 3 grates that run from left to right?

What I'm, asking is if you have the older style VC or newer style with multiple grates that run from front to rear (this style slides when shaking, not rocks like the old style does)

springer · Post by **springer** » Mon. Feb. 06, 2012 5:31 pm

mine has I think 8 grates that run front to back similar to the Vigilant II. No hopper,it was an option on my stove

rewinder · Post by **rewinder** » Mon. Feb. 06, 2012 5:55 pm

OPPS!!

I just saw the picture of your stove above your name, and see it's hopperless newer model---- you should talk to VigIIPeaBurner, he's the guru on a stock VigII stove.

Your stove probably has the ash pan under the grates and inside the doors, instead of under the ash shelf, like the newest version has.

But the operation should be similar As for glass gaskets, as far as I know every VC stove of these styles do have continuous "u" shaped gasketing on each glass pane.

The best thing you can do is make sure all air coming into the stove passes thru the fire grates and not around it at any spot. If your doors meet the front grate and have a 1/4" or so gap between the doors and the grate, that's a long gap that allows air to bypass the fire. You should "glue" on 2 soft 3/8' or 1/2" rope gaskets, one on each door, to seal off that area when doors are closed.

Also if your chimney is is that tall, you may have a real strong draft, and need a barometric damper to slow down the draft and keep more heat in the stove and not going out the chimney.

How hot is the pipe above the stove and below the insulated chimney pipe?

rewinder · Post by **rewinder** » Mon. Feb. 06, 2012 5:56 pm

I don't think a hopper was an option on your model, that's why you have the square grateing behind the windows

VigIIPeaBurner · Post by **VigIIPeaBurner** » Tue. Feb. 07, 2012 12:09 am

Welcome Springer. Good place to hang out

The 6" chimney should be no problem when burning coal. The model 2310, like I have, is "only coal" and is 6" pipe all the way from the collar. My chimney is ~ 16' SS counting the double wall pipe. Plenty of draft in my installation.

I'm not familiar with the 'multi-fuel' (M-f) Vigilant but it looks to be very close to the 2310. Does the M-f have clean out ports, one on each side and one on the back (your right) behind the grates and are the covers in place? If any are loose or missing you'll loose draft through the fire and experience what you describe.

Another place where draft can be wasted is the secondary air inlet on the stove's right side - where the damper handle is. I keep mine closed all the way when burning anthracite. It might help some when burning bituminous, but I only see a drop in performance if I keep it open with ant.

The 2310 has a large air inlet inside the stove behind the grates (your left). This model came with a restrictor plate installed that drastically reduced the air flow into the fire. I has to be removed to burn anthracite. Could it be that the M-f has a similar restrictor that must be removed?

There are some pictures in this thead. They show the 2310's ports I'm trying to describe.

In your post you state that you "shut the damper down a little". The Vigilant's damper isn't used like a manual pipe damper. It open it give a straight shot up the chimney. Closed it directs all exhaust gases to both sides and around the back before it reaches the chimney pipe collar. It should be kept open or closed, preferably close when the griddle reaches 500.

If you could describe what your thermostat settings look like, it would help too. What postion is the rod and how open is the flap when you are damped down?

springer · Post by **springer** » Tue. Feb. 07, 2012 8:45 am

rewinder wrote:OPPS!!

The best thing you can do is make sure all air coming into the stove passes thru the fire grates and not around it at any spot. If your doors meet the front grate and have a 1/4" or so gap between the doors and the grate, that's a long gap that allows air to bypass the fire. You should "glue" on 2 soft 3/8' or 1/2" rope gaskets, one on each door, to seal off that area when doors are closed.

Also if your chimney is is that tall, you may have a real strong draft, and need a barometric damper to slow down the draft and keep more heat in the stove and not going out the chimney.

How hot is the pipe above the stove and below the insulated chimney pipe?

It does have a rather large space between the doors and the grate .The pipe will get to to around 300 when the griddle is around 400-450

VigIIPeaBurner wrote:Welcome Springer. Good place to hang out

The 6" chimney should be no problem when burning coal. The model 2310, like I have, is "only coal" and is 6" pipe all the way from the collar. My chimney is ~ 16' SS counting the double wall pipe. Plenty of draft in my installation.

I'm not familiar with the 'multi-fuel' (M-f) Vigilant but it looks to be very close to the 2310. Does the M-f have clean out ports, one on each side and one on the back (your right) behind the grates and are the covers in place? If any are loose or missing you'll loose draft through the fire and experience what you describe.The clean out covers are all in place. From What I have read the Multi-fuel is the same as later stoves just the name change when the EPA made some rules in 86 a year after mine was made . They couldn't sell it as a "wood" burner, only coal

Another place where draft can be wasted is the secondary air inlet on the stove's right side - where the damper handle is. I keep mine closed all the way when burning anthracite. It might help some when burning bituminous, but I only see a drop in performance if I keep it open with ant.
The secondary is closed .

The 2310 has a large air inlet inside the stove behind the grates (your left). This model came with a restrictor plate installed that drastically reduced the air flow into the fire. I has to be removed to burn anthracite. Could it be that the M-f has a similar restrictor that must be removed?

I will have to look at that EDIT: insnt the restictor plate used to burn bituminous coal? My owners manual say's I can only burn anthracite pea, nut or stove

There are some pictures in this thead. They show the 2310's ports I'm trying to describe.

In your post you state that you "shut the damper down a little". The Vigilant's damper isn't used like a manual pipe damper. It open it give a straight shot up the chimney. Closed it directs all exhaust gases to both sides and around the back before it reaches the chimney pipe collar. It should be kept open or closed, preferably close when the griddle reaches 500.

If you could describe what your thermostat settings look like, it would help too. What postion is the rod and how open is the flap when you are damped down?

My mistake I called the thermostat the damper. I set it about the mid position the flap would just be open when the stove is hot but as it cools it would open more. I wait till the stove is hot like you said before shutting the damper

I also don't try to burn coal when its above 30 out

springer · Post by **springer** » Tue. Feb. 07, 2012 10:07 am

rewinder wrote:I don't think a hopper was an option on your model, that's why you have the square grateing behind the windows

The hopper was optional, in the owners manual it shows how to assemble it and install it.The guy I bought it from kept everything I am the second owner .

VigIIPeaBurner · Post by **VigIIPeaBurner** » Tue. Feb. 07, 2012 8:18 pm

springer wrote:It does have a rather large space between the doors and the grate .The pipe will get to to around 300 when the griddle is around 400-450

300* is high for a griddle temperature in that low range. Your only transferring a little more than half the heat to the room. I measure stove pipe skin temperatures ~ 130* at 400-450, ~175-185* at 700*

springer wrote:I will have to look at that EDIT: insnt the restictor plate used to burn bituminous coal? My owners manual say's I can only burn anthracite pea, nut or stove

Yes, but your stove is a 'multi-fuel' which I assume means including wood as a fuel

The 2310 states the restrictor plate must be removed to burn anthracite. If I burn wood, it will over heat easily without the restrictor plate. I can control it better with the plate in when burning wood. Did you say you have to watch when burning wood so the stove doesn't overheat? If so, the plate is most likely removed if it was even in the M-f. Check when you have the fire out. Since you bought it used, you don't know for sure how the PO ran it. With the plate in, the hole is reduced by ~ 80% (and so is the air). It should be something similar to this picture although it's a hidden some by the 2310 grate bar.

Good to use the internal damper this way. I'm concerned that you have air bypassing the coal bed for several reasons.

Pipe temperature ~300* when the griddle is 400-450*. Most of the available heat from the coal is going up the chimney
The air flap opens more after you shut the damper. Mine does just the opposite. Once my damper is closed, the cast iron sides and back heat up and transfer more heat to the bimetallic coil causing the flap to close to ~ 1.8-1/4" when the stove reaches cruising temperature. Since your flap is opening, the fire is cooling and the thermostat is allowing more air into the stove.
- Summing it up, too much heat up the chimney, the flap opening when damped down and a cool fire with remaining fuel inside of 8 hours means the likely culprit is air bypassing the fire box.

springer · Post by **springer** » Wed. Feb. 08, 2012 12:44 pm

VigIIPeaBurner I was going by memory on the flue I may be wrong on it since I have been burning wood exclusively for the last 2 months. My griddle never goes below 600-700 when I am burning wood and the stack will be around 300 or so. If I don't turn the thermo down it just keeps going up. I have had the thermometer on the griddle pegged at times just to burn off any creosote in the flue.

Looked at the owners manual they say not to burn bituminous only anthracite or wood they even go into mixing them, using coal at night and wood during the day or all together at the same time .Guess there is no restrictor plate I will look when the stove is out ... sometime in April

I do think there is air getting around the grates. I did tests with a lighter and a smoking incense stick and no air is being drawn in at any of the doors or seams just a few spots on the flue pipe.

Its not a big deal I have a few hundred pounds of coal in two 55 gallon drums and about 12 cords of wood stacked. So I am good for this winter and next . Thanks for the help I will add some gasket to the doors where it meets the grates can't hurt.

springer · Post by **springer** » Wed. Feb. 08, 2012 12:48 pm

VigIIPeaBurner wrote: Good to use the internal damper this way. I'm concerned that you have air bypassing the coal bed for several reasons.
Pipe temperature ~300* when the griddle is 400-450*. Most of the available heat from the coal is going up the chimney
The air flap opens more after you shut the damper. Mine does just the opposite. Once my damper is closed, the cast iron sides and back heat up and transfer more heat to the bimetallic coil causing the flap to close to ~ 1.8-1/4" when the stove reaches cruising temperature. Since your flap is opening, the fire is cooling and the thermostat is allowing more air into the stove.
Summing it up, too much heat up the chimney, the flap opening when damped down and a cool fire with remaining fuel inside of 8 hours means the likely culprit is air bypassing the fire box.

When I said the thermostat opens its when the stove starts to cool after a few hours as the wood fire dies down it then adds more air to bring the stove temp back up to where I initially set it at .. Clear as mud?

springer · Post by **springer** » Wed. Feb. 08, 2012 1:29 pm

I think I may just take out the grates and ash pan and use it with some sand for the time being like the original Vigilant wood stove. The manual states that when using wood the side firebricks can be removed to allow the use of 18 inch logs instead of 16 inch. So what I am thinking is without the grates and bricks I can get a longer burn and with less loading.

thanks for the help I will be back I am sure when I attempt to use coal

stonyloam · Post by **stonyloam** » Tue. Feb. 14, 2012 10:09 am

springer wrote: It does have a rather large space between the doors and the grate .The pipe will get to to around 300 when the griddle is around 400-450

That is your problem. Same as in the earlier Vig 1.o. If that gap is not sealed off your stove will not work efficiently. Try using a rope gasket as stated above. I glued mine to the front of the grate so the doors close tightly against it. Good luck.

VigIIPeaBurner · Post by **VigIIPeaBurner** » Tue. Feb. 14, 2012 6:51 pm

springer wrote:When I said the thermostat opens its when the stove starts to cool after a few hours as the wood fire dies down it then adds more air to bring the stove temp back up to where I initially set it at .. Clear as mud?

Sorry, I missed the part where you said you've been burning wood exclusively.

springer · Post by **springer** » Wed. Feb. 15, 2012 1:47 pm

played with it over the weekend the stove that is looked to see if there was a restrictor plate, none. I added some gasket the doors sit tight to the grate now. I did another leak test and the door gasket had failed so I replaced the door gaskets and the griddle, lit the stove with oak and locust let it get down to a good bed of coals and added about a half a small bucket of coal let it get going and then added the rest when it was going real good I topped it off to just under the top of the bricks. Burned all night at 375-400° and the stack was 110° house was 68° . I am only going to use coal on real cold nights thanks for the help