Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Mark (PA) On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:25 pm

Hello Forum

I am looking for input on a well expansion tank.

Currently I have a Well X trol tank that is bad. The bladder has a tear etc and it is water logged.

So I need to replace this unit in the very very near future.

The issue I have are as follows.

1. I don't know what size tank I currently have. there is no lettering on it, no tags, nothing. It "looks" like a 20 Gallon tank compared to looking at tanks at big box stores but again I don't know this. I can read the serial number but that is about all i can find other than the Well X trol label.

2. I also don't know what size pump I have in the well or how deep it is. Have only lived in this home for 6 years and previous owner knows none of these answers. Pump has never been out of the well to this point.

What I DO know is that I have approx 75 gallons of water in the well before it will run out. I don't really know if that is average or below average but I have run it out in the past in the summertime so I am pretty confident in that number.

Can anyone out there suggest any of the following info for me.

1. what is a good type of Well Expansion Tank (Quality Wise) I like to be good Quality even though it may cost more....
2. Does anyone know what size tank I should be looking for based on the amount of water in the well?
3. Does anyone use a Cycle Stop Valve? http://cyclestopvalves.com/index2.html

i have read about these but of course do not have one.

Otherwise this is your somewhat typical setup? Right now running pressures of 20/40 which I am finding is lower than most poeple may run now a days...?

Any and ALL help is appreciated ... I am not a plumber and don't play one in the movies.

I would have never hooked up my own Hydronic Boiler without the help of MANY members on this forum... So looking for more of that help!
Mark (PA)
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1953 EFM SF-520 High Boy
Stove/Furnace Model: Fitzgibbon Boiler

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: jim d On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:52 pm

1st you should stay 1 nite @ a holiday inn express, then get the same well troll that just failed, it has a 5 year warrentee, and is as about the best your going to find
jim d
 
Stove/Furnace Make: alaska//coaljck
Stove/Furnace Model: liberty// cj3

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: windago On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:02 pm

first if your running "dry". you should have someone who knows how to work on wells, come out and drop your pump down more. they drill the hole deeper than needed for this. your running out of water due to the fact that your pump is high in the well. it should not need to be drilled deeper. just the pump dropped in the well deeper. as for a expansion tank. size really doesn't matter. the larger the tank the more water you will have on hand, before the pump kicks on and refills the tank. this is called draw down. the larger the tank the longer your pump will run. so a 15 to 20 gallon will due fine for a single family home. a pressure difference of 20/40 is normal. higher pressure often tends to cause problems. signs of over pressure is you toilet won't stop running even when full. valve in the tank can't hold back the pressure. most people on city water have pressure reducing valves so as not to have problems.

as for the Cycle Stop Valve. this is not needed for a residential setting. there used more for large water demands. by all means you can use one. but your system should be set up with a one way check valve somewhere in the system. the check valve is so the pump doesn't have to pump the depth of the well. your pump could be 50 to 500 feet in the ground.
windago
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman/EFM/losch
Stove/Furnace Model: mark III/?350 round nose/ 475


Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: McGiever On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:11 pm

I agree w/ what has been said by both above. :)

Hint: If your pump has a controller box, read that tag to discover motor H.P.
Maybe someone wrote the depth of well or pump placement there too. :)

Not all pumps are of the 3-wire variety requiring a controller though.
2-wire pumps do NOT require a controller.

Check out the Coyote or Pump Saver Well Controller to prevent running well dry and burning up the pump and/or motor.
Last edited by McGiever on Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN MAGNUM
Hand Fed Coal Stove: RADIANT HOME AIR BLAST
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Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE, NUT-STOVE / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:19 pm

I like the State Industries Pump Mate Air-Pak Tanks.

See: http://www.statewaterheaters.com/prod/p ... -pmap.html

They are unique with the pressure switch on the air side of the tank bladder. This keeps the controls out of the harmful water environment. You should select the largest tank size you can fit or afford. Large tanks cycle the pump less, leading to longer pump life. Of course you can't size it larger than your well can supply water. You can test the well to determine it's capacity. In my state records are kept on the well capacity when it was drilled. There is a metal tag affixed to the well casing with a number. Records can be accessed with that number and your address.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: CoalUserWannabe On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:41 am

here is a tank , but I am not sure if it's worth the long drive for the savings:

http://poconos.craigslist.org/mat/2801388586.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


To increase the pressure, you simply change the 20/40 swithch, to 30/50, or better yet 40/60, the 40/60 are finally available, and they work great, I installed few of them, and we all love them, keep in mind, in most cities, pressure is around 80 PSI.

Most submersible pumps are 1/2 HP an they are good down to 100 Feet or so, if you are running out, it simply means your well is not refilling fast enough, getting a bigger tank may help emptying the well, so to refresh the pores in the subsurface for the water to seep through them. Pumps usually have charts as to the depth, pressure and GPM delivery.

Here is an article showing a chart :
http://www.wellpumpsandfilters.com/Sizi ... ep_41.html
CoalUserWannabe
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Alaska
Stove/Furnace Model: Kodiak

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Freddy On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:33 am

Buying a pressure tank is like buying a car.... which is the best? For me, any tank that comes into my house will say "Amtrol" on it. I might try one of the new ones,the Wellx1.....http://www.amtrol.com/wellx1.html.

While most people think the larger the tank the better, and to a certain extent I agree, my well drilling buddy says no. He says that large tanks lead to long periods of time at low pressure. I suppose they also lead to long periods of high pressure too, but he has found most people are bugged when the pressure is close to making the pump come on, yet doesn't. Most people don't notice a long period of high pressure, but everyone notices low. If you are set at 20-40, taking an entire shower at 21 PSI is not much fun.

I run my house at 40-60PSI. 17 years ago installed a 3/4 HP Gould pump and a 20 gallon Amtrol tank. Zero issue so far.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
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Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:28 am

Larger tanks will not neccesarily lead to longer periods of "low" pressure as Freddys plumber buddy says. The pressure is totally dependant on the adjustment of the pressure switch. I run my system like Freddy at 40-60. 40 psi is still darn good pressure. A bigger tank will cause your pump cycles to be less frequent but run for a slightly longer cycle. I think that's better. Pumps like to run. They don't like startup.
And by the way. It's not an expansion tank, it's a pressure tank.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: 009to090 On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:42 am

I got the 110 gal Wellmate Pro. All fiberglass with variable-pressure air bladder. 1 1/4" copper coming out. Pressure switch set for 30-50 psi. This tank can pull 50gal easy, at a time. I put a little extra air pressure in the bladder, so I only pull 35gal at one time. It's going to depend on what your pump's draw-down is, as to how much you can pull at one time.

I have no noticable drop in pressure at any faucet, between the drop from 50psi to 30psi. No noticeable INCREASE in pressure, when the pump kicks in to refill to 50psi.
I like this setup.

Pictures are in this thread.... Domestic Well Water Tank
009to090
 
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Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Yanche On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:33 pm

My Pump Mate is a 86 gal. tank. I also use 40/60 psig. I have no noticeable water flow changes at any pressure. That's because I run properly sized piping to my fixtures. No need to have high pressure to make up for inadequate water flow. You need to understand the very fundamental difference between pressure and flow.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: SMITTY On: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:07 pm

Yep - Well X Trol. I had one in here for over 20 years judging by the rot on the exterior. I replaced it with a cheap Lowe's Wellsaver - 3 years 3 months and counting, but it's already blistering with rust - even though I smeared grease all over the lower half of it. This tank is double the size of the old one.

If you don't like low pressure, don't set the pressure low. ;)

I set mine at 28/68. I believe it's a 30/50 switch - just tweaked it to my liking. The bigger tank along with the wider pressure spread makes the pump cycle much less than before. Used to kick on 3 times per shower - now only once. Basically tripled the expected life of the pump right there.

I can live with low water pressure if it means keeping $400 in my pocket plus a whole day of aggravation at bay. I'm getting my money's worth out of this one.
SMITTY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Patriot Coal - custom built by Jim Dorsey
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III (not currently in use)
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Blaschak anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired Burnham boiler

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Mark (PA) On: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:02 pm

All

First off thanks for the input! I apologize for lack of response on my part. My family is Ill and have had to take my daughter who is 3 to the doctor 2 times now for complications this week. So all and all its been hectic.

I will read up on all this good info this weekend hopefully.

Thanks again, Probably more questions to come.

Mark
Mark (PA)
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1953 EFM SF-520 High Boy
Stove/Furnace Model: Fitzgibbon Boiler

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Mark (PA) On: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:03 pm

while I'm typing.

I found a piece of paper when we moved here that stated the well was 125'. Don't know how reliable that is or not and I have looked under the well cap before but found no further info on depth etc.

Again, thanks for now, be back with more questions!
Mark (PA)
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1953 EFM SF-520 High Boy
Stove/Furnace Model: Fitzgibbon Boiler

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: Mark (PA) On: Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:06 pm

On the pressure thing... 20/40

I suppose its one of those things we are used too and frankly 20 PSI even in the shower really isn't so bad. Possibly the previous owner sized fixtures and piping correctly as Yanche mentioned so it doesn't bother us???

In any case I guess its like you don't miss something you don't have (more pressure in this case!)

Thanks
Mark (PA)
 
Stove/Furnace Make: 1953 EFM SF-520 High Boy
Stove/Furnace Model: Fitzgibbon Boiler

Re: Well Expansion Tank Suggestions

PostBy: europachris On: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:46 pm

Mark (PA) wrote:On the pressure thing... 20/40

I suppose its one of those things we are used too and frankly 20 PSI even in the shower really isn't so bad. Possibly the previous owner sized fixtures and piping correctly as Yanche mentioned so it doesn't bother us???

In any case I guess its like you don't miss something you don't have (more pressure in this case!)

Thanks


It depends also on your house style. 20 psi doesn't push water from a basement floor mounted well tank up to a 2nd floor shower head very well. It could easily be 25 feet vertical height, and that would take (25 feet x .43 psi per foot) 10.75 psi, leaving only 9.25 psi left to shower with. Not much more than a dribble....
europachris
 
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