Old Stove BTU

CoalUserWannabe wrote: The efficiency mentioned in the formula above, has to do with the burn, and not with the heat extraction !

Extracting the heat produced by the stove is a whole different story, with other sets of parameters and formulas, and that's another efficiency definition altogether.

wsherrick wrote: In any kind of a heating appliance, there are TWO types of efficiency you want to strive for.
In the case of most stoves, especially the ones made today, both functions of efficiency are forced to act in the same place and like I said above the two efficiencies are exclusive of each other.

Thank you William for clarifying , I thought I was losing it for a while !

I did not quiet call them exactly as "Combustion " and "Thermal " , I refered to them as "Burn " and " heat extraction " but at least I was on the right track, and since in the original posting formula, there was an indication of efficiency relating to the grate size only, it was obvious that the thermal efficiency was not taking into consideration !

coalnewbie wrote:Ah William my friend, let me put in a counter proposal (in a good natured way), in the depth of winter a good argument stirs the soul (or something like that). Perhaps your chosen POH device is say 93% efficient (an arbitrary number for the sake of discussion) but let me compare that to my favorite stove the AnthraKing 110K. My powervent flue temp before the baro is only about 140F when the real stove temp is about 600F and that speaks to very high efficiency. As a Chubby is about 85% efficient my guess is my stove is closer to 90% so let me be kind and give you 5% in the combustion efficiency dept. Let us now talk distribution efficiency and there you don't even come close.

If the stove room is at 85F (say) and room where you want the heat is 70F (if you are lucky) then that 5% extra probably gets lost through the r19 (or whatever) walls and we are even but you failed to get the heat where you wanted it. An argument that does not include combustion and distribution efficiency is flawed at best and of course this is the hydronic boys argument.

Incoming....... and you thought the next war was coming from the Middle East.

You can put a 100% efficient burning stove, with 100% efficient heat transfer, via either radiation, convection air] or conduction [water], and put this perfect stove in a corn crib, or in you driveway with a cardboard box around it.. The house or enclosure is near 0% efficient at retaining heat..
But this has ZERO to do with the discussion of the stove or burning efficiency..

Effecienty moving heat around in the house is a subject for the venting, ducting forum.
And by the way, using hot air for the medium to move air around in a building is the LEAST efficient way to move heat. Air is a very poor conveyor of heat.

Greg L.

I thought it was well understood that heating one's home hydronically was more efficient than heating the air inside the home?

I do agree however, that few(er) people enjoy the advantage of hydronic heating, especially here in the Northeast where forced-hot-air is more prevalent. And because of this, it is more difficult to choose a proper stove or furnace than it is to choose a boiler.

Air is not as good as water at transferring heat that is obvious but convection is cheaper if you can make it work and good enough is good enough. Simpler, much cheaper infrastructure, lower maintenance and much easier to filter. Sorry guys, I just don't buy it. There are other churches,

Ok my plymouth has a 12 inch grate so for an example I have a question?

I have 5 variables controls on my stove I can adjust or ignore or remove

1, intake grates on ash door ( 0 to 100% off grates)
2, split pipe damper on back off stove (either open or closed)
3, Manuel Pipe Damper (from 0 to 100% closed but that probable 80% of cfm closed at the 100%closed)
4, barometric damper (0% take it off and plug the hole to 100% damper set for .002 inches of water)
5, bed height @ 14 deep ( this may not be a control but we can adjust it )

Ok with these 5 possible control's how can I increase the operating efficiency of the machine or for every dollar I give it in coal how do I get the most heat quantity out off it?

2nd part off the question is what controls work together { if I lower the bed height but also lower the baro draft setting can I run a smaller BTU size fire later in the season?} or {if I close the MPD but set the baro to .008 inches this will work the best in the cold? or this does nothing but smash myself in the forehead with a hammer

I am basing my question around an earlier thread it was said that the Chubby's have base efficiency off @ 72 % but if you added a MPD and closed them off the efficiency headed toward 90 %

we also can build on this from other stove designs like a glenwood base heater has a few more trick's like control's for exhaust gases leaving the chamber. I have only the split pipe they have one maybe two more options before entering the chimney and they also have secondary air control's

Changing the coal height will not change efficiency that I know of. You need to fill it up. You adjust BTU's by air in and out.

I think in the formula the 8 lbs of coal burning per sqft is probably the most that you can burn. What I mean is even if your bed is 14" deep, I bet the top just say 7" is contributing very little to the BTU output, cause most of the available oxygen is used up. (maybe someone with more knowledge of coal combustion can comment)

I would think for your old stove I would ditch the baro, if you have to adjust it its not automatic. I bet the best effiency would come from running the stove as designed, without the baro.

Eric

coalnewbie wrote:Air is not as good as water at transferring heat that is obvious but convection is cheaper if you can make it work and good enough is good enough. Simpler, much cheaper infrastructure, lower maintenance and much easier to filter. Sorry guys, I just don't buy it. There are other churches,

This is a thread about how to determine the BTU output and efficiency of freestanding antique stoves. If you want to talk about Central Heat, go to the Central Heat section and talk about it there.

coalnewbie wrote:Ah William my friend, let me put in a counter proposal (in a good natured way), in the depth of winter a good argument stirs the soul (or something like that). Perhaps your chosen POH device is say 93% efficient (an arbitrary number for the sake of discussion) but let me compare that to my favorite stove the AnthraKing 110K. My powervent flue temp before the baro is only about 140F when the real stove temp is about 600F and that speaks to very high efficiency. As a Chubby is about 85% efficient my guess is my stove is closer to 90% so let me be kind and give you 5% in the combustion efficiency dept. Let us now talk distribution efficiency and there you don't even come close.

If the stove room is at 85F (say) and room where you want the heat is 70F (if you are lucky) then that 5% extra probably gets lost through the r19 (or whatever) walls and we are even but you failed to get the heat where you wanted it. An argument that does not include combustion and distribution efficiency is flawed at best and of course this is the hydronic boys argument.

Incoming....... and you thought the next war was coming from the Middle East.

My Glenwood still matches yours and it does it without all of the electric auxilary devices that yours depends on to even operate at all. At 600 degrees my stove with a wide open pipe damper never raises the stack temperture above 125-140. And if we measured how much coal it took to maintain those temperatures, you would lose again. As far as distribution is concerned, we are not talking about forced air or hydronic central heat, we are talking about free standing antique stoves. Even so the laws of physics and combustion are universal. To understand anything about any kind of heating appliance or system, you need to understand the basics of combustion and heat transfer. It's very simple.

kstone wrote:Ok my plymouth has a 12 inch grate so for an example I have a question?

I have 5 variables controls on my stove I can adjust or ignore or remove

1, intake grates on ash door ( 0 to 100% off grates)
2, split pipe damper on back off stove (either open or closed)
3, Manuel Pipe Damper (from 0 to 100% closed but that probable 80% of cfm closed at the 100%closed)
4, barometric damper (0% take it off and plug the hole to 100% damper set for .002 inches of water)
5, bed height @ 14 deep ( this may not be a control but we can adjust it )

Ok with these 5 possible control's how can I increase the operating efficiency of the machine or for every dollar I give it in coal how do I get the most heat quantity out off it?

2nd part off the question is what controls work together { if I lower the bed height but also lower the baro draft setting can I run a smaller BTU size fire later in the season?} or {if I close the MPD but set the baro to .008 inches this will work the best in the cold? or this does nothing but smash myself in the forehead with a hammer

I am basing my question around an earlier thread it was said that the Chubby's have base efficiency off @ 72 % but if you added a MPD and closed them off the efficiency headed toward 90 %

we also can build on this from other stove designs like a glenwood base heater has a few more trick's like control's for exhaust gases leaving the chamber. I have only the split pipe they have one maybe two more options before entering the chimney and they also have secondary air control's

I don't know how you could make your stove more efficient in itself. It's already very efficient as it is right now and it seems like you have it running fine. The only thing to do and it takes time is to learn how to operate the stove in various conditions. Fire tending methods such as using a heavier or lighter ash layer on the grates also come into play. Running a stove is part science and part art. That's what is so great about them.

Yes William the thread is Old Stove BTU so I won't hijack it.

To understand anything about any kind of heating appliance or system, you need to understand the basics of combustion and heat transfer. It's very simple.

So the struggle here is an epistemological one (epistemology being the study of how we know what we know).

PS, still love your stove and the videos.

Kstone,

While you are talking about the controls on you stove, you probably also have a check damper in that ash pit of that stove. When you remove the ash pan, see if there are any vents in the back? They usually have a small thumb pull around back where the back pipe sits in that elbow. This would be the built in baro these stoves came with that allow high draft to bypass the coal bed.

kstone wrote:Ok my plymouth has a 12 inch grate so for an example I have a question?

I have 5 variables controls on my stove I can adjust or ignore or remove

1, intake grates on ash door ( 0 to 100% off grates)
2, split pipe damper on back off stove (either open or closed)
3, Manuel Pipe Damper (from 0 to 100% closed but that probable 80% of cfm closed at the 100%closed)
4, barometric damper (0% take it off and plug the hole to 100% damper set for .002 inches of water)
5, bed height @ 14 deep ( this may not be a control but we can adjust it )

Ok with these 5 possible control's how can I increase the operating efficiency of the machine or for every dollar I give it in coal how do I get the most heat quantity out off it?

2nd part off the question is what controls work together { if I lower the bed height but also lower the baro draft setting can I run a smaller BTU size fire later in the season?} or {if I close the MPD but set the baro to .008 inches this will work the best in the cold? or this does nothing but smash myself in the forehead with a hammer

I am basing my question around an earlier thread it was said that the Chubby's have base efficiency off @ 72 % but if you added a MPD and closed them off the efficiency headed toward 90 %

we also can build on this from other stove designs like a glenwood base heater has a few more trick's like control's for exhaust gases leaving the chamber. I have only the split pipe they have one maybe two more options before entering the chimney and they also have secondary air control's

Hi Kstone.

Since you have instruments and an interest to maximize your stove's efficiency, you can keep a log of your settings, and weather conditions. This log will help you figure out what your stove likes and what works best for you.

First, for safety, with your strong chimney, keep an eye on your draft at the stove, as well as the temperature of the flue pipe. As William mentioned in a different thread, if the baro cools the flue temperature too much, you could develope a low draft condtion. I'd keep the draft at at least .03-.04"

From the stand point of burning the coal efficiently, does your ash have any chunks, unburnt coal in it?? if so, maybe you are shaking too agressively or too often. If your ash is nothing but powder, what you are doing is working fine..
If you have chunks in your stove's ashes, try a gentler shake, just enough to get the fine powder to fall, but leaving the chunks to finish burning to powder.

Keep the inside of your stove cylinder clean, a quick wipe with a brush will keep the steel clean, for better heat conduction.
And keep the indirect pipe on the back of your stove clean, frequently clean out the base of the pipe, so fly-ash doesn't accumulate, and
a quick wipe with boiler cleaning brushes on both sides of the pipe will keep it's inner surfaces clean and conducting heat as well as possible.

I think that with some attention to details, like the cylinder temperature, the amount of under the fire combustion air, the draft through the stove,
and the resulting flue temperatures. you will find a 'sweet spot' that your particular coal and stove settings likes..
You will find settings that allow you to 'turn up' the heat for an extra cold and windy night,
as well as find settings that allow you to turn down the heat for a warm spell and fall/spring temperatures.

Be aware that coal is a product of nature, not every bag or truckload of coal will burn identically to the previous load. So keeping a log
will help you determine what works best..

Nice stove, and nice settup. Let us know how it works for you.. and what settings seem to 'do the job'..

Greg L

SteveZee wrote:Kstone,

While you are talking about the controls on you stove, you probably also have a check damper in that ash pit of that stove. When you remove the ash pan, see if there are any vents in the back? They usually have a small thumb pull around back where the back pipe sits in that elbow. This would be the built in baro these stoves came with that allow high draft to bypass the coal bed.

I have removed the pan there is no damper or connection from the pan to the base off the split pipe box it might be a common wall. There is a small 2x2 clean out plate at the base off the split pipe cast iron box. On one side there is a thumb lever that hold one end in while the other end and both sides are in a slot or channel that doesn't allow me to push up on it

Hi Kstone, can you take some photos of the 'thumb lever' that seems to be stuck?? Inside and outside phtos if possible?

Greg L.