LL110K in the basement.

I got it delivered on 2/20 and I have PexSupply order coming and I will start to plumb this in shortly.

I’m a DIY plumber so I need plan this out and clean up some of my previous work. I have been reading all of the 110K install/operating post and look forward to
installing and dialing in the blue box. I ordered the 110K with the 5 gpm DHW coil and easy cleanout opt.

I’m the original owner of the house that was built in 1979. It’s 1900 Sq’s standard 2*4 construction with 1” T&G foam sheeting, Pella doors and wood windows with 1” air gap.
Just two zones in the house on Taco ZV’s. I have re-plumbed the down stairs loop to control flow to rooms with limited use.

The 110K will become the primary heating appliance. I have a Harmon TLC 2000 in the family room which does a great job but the whole house heat distribution of my
HS Tarm 202 boiler is preferred. I wanted to go the stoker boiler direction to increase burn time between out-fires of the Tarm hand fed. The 110K will be replacing my
original 1979 install Weil McLain boiler. That boiler has been in standby for the past six heating seasons and is very rarely called upon for heat. I did fire it up after 36 hour loss of power
during our hurricane Irene visit for DHW.

The HS Tarm 202 boiler (I installed in 1982) is plumbed in parallel with the WM and will remain operating in parallel with the 110K. Both boilers will be valved for standalone or combined operation.
I hope the extra 24 gal of the Tarm boiler will aid in dialing in the 110K. Three months ago I was running DHW generation electric only with my Rheem Marathon a 50 Gal electric thermos bottle.
After reading thru some post on this forum related to DHW generation I decided to plumb the Rheem to be charged thru the DHW coil in the WM boiler heated by the Tarm. There is no DHW coil
in the Tarm boiler. The 110K will take over that job directly once it is plumbed in.

I have a Taco bronze pump plumbed in that is signaled by the Rheem lower thermostat when demand requires a recharge of Rheem and the Tarm boiler is up to temp.

I should have done this a long time ago. Most of the time the Taco pump is idle but when the lower thermostat of the Rheem needs to be satisfied it’s an 85 Watt draw for the Taco pump vs 4.5KW
for the Rheem lower element. If the Tarm boiler goes out-fire or the 110K after install, I have the upper 4.5KW element in the Rheem for standby. If I have to fail back to the lower element
in the Rheem it’s < 5 min job to power up that element. With six adults in the house this has helped big time to $low down the $pin rate of the electric meter.

I’m sure I’ll have questions down the road so I will be calling on forum expertise. Matt and Dave helped me with some rookie questions. I dial the mfg. and Matt or Dave picks up.......very refreshing.

Some pics of my messy basement and the location of the heating appliances..............Dick

Looking good so far. I think the added mass of the Tarm will be a blessing, please keep us updated on your progress.

You are not new to the event, and it sure looks like you are a clever guy who actually understands thermal mass relativity. Yesterday I viewed an ATMOS gassifier with 3-1000 gallon old propane tanks for thermal mass...coated in 3" of spray foam....computer controls, blah, blah, blah. This setup is one I check in on once a winter just to remind myself of how to throw, "BURN" cash, to achieve a warm home. Sure it works, but is hand fed and labor intensive...requiring wood, grrrrrrr!
30K to make it happen..................................... and you have a triple system that offers redundancy and many options......affordable! Smart. very smart.

I believe the thermal mass storage issue is the biggest factor to consider with any heating system. Small thermal mass boilers do well at what they are designed for, however this forum's members chose a more reserved method to stay comfy that keeps the cash within our local economy. The lower thermal reserve coal boilers may be enhanced with additional storage. Axeman Anderson is absolutely amazing when you look at the size of the burn area in the chamber. Unless you have used one you can't understand something so compact can outperform things twice the physical size. The only issue with a small fire flat bed stoker is latency of the fire when power goes out. 15 minutes is the max from my observations. Underfed or AA style boilers can be a full 24hrs. Not a big deal if you have a generator, if not.....it's easy to restart then anyway.

Can't wait to hear more about you latest addition. I know you know this, but a larger thermal expansion tank might be on your shopping list. Your DHW resolution looks to be well thought out.
I always say this is a hobby where the final destination is not the goal, it's the journey that makes it fun. Lots of nice folks to exchange ideas with, and only a handful of 'A-holes' to test your sense of humor.

Don't be afraid to call Matt or Dave for tech issues. They actually do respond and will answer any question you have. My final question/comment would be why did you not go for the 220LL? The upgrade is very short money and it's like having a 454 under the tin. Two stokers if you need them, one in reserve if you don't.....I know the heat loss calc......but.......in the real world, things are different.

Hey Rob, whistlenut,

Been looking at the WL110K for some time now before pulling the trigger. I did feel this 12 gallon low mass boiler might be a factor with some of the dial in issues I have read from other owners.

JPEN has no reported DZ calls from what I remember running his 110K in series with his OB so I felt my parallel set up with the Tarm (24 gal) boiler may make for a smoother dial in process............I’ll find out.

I turned over a few rocks looking into a refurb EFM but decided to put the money toward a boiler that would allow me to heat with coal (stoker extended burn times) and when the time came for me to pull the plug and move south………just slap the oil gun on for the home buyer that wants to walk over and hit the thermostat.

whistlenut said “”My final question/comment would be why did you not go for the 220LL?””

I thought that boiler might be over kill for my heating needs. Did the Slant/Fin heat loss and came up with 51.2K Heat Loss BTU/Hr for my 1900 Sq's. My HS Tarm 202 is name plate rated @80K BTU/Hr. and has carried the heating load thru all temps experienced to date since my 82 install. I’ll let you gents know how it goes once the 110K is lit up. I’ll have the opt. to load the Tarm up with nut and load share with the 110k if required. When my wife wants the family room at the temperature of the sun I'll light off the TLC 2K.

whistlenut said “”a larger thermal expansion tank might be on your shopping list”” Yep I agree. ""Underfed or AA style boilers can be a full 24hrs. Not a big deal if you have a generator, if not.....it's easy to restart then anyway. "" Living in the country SEPA PECO power outages can be a real PITA. I have a 5500W gen in the garage for well pump, general lighting etc. and in the basement back ground pic there is a manual transfer switch on the basement wall left of the 110K.

Take care gents and I’ll post a follow up down the road........ time to go shake down the Tarm. Current house temps here in Honey Brook PA. ready for the temp drop tonight...............Dick

That setup will work fine and the extra 24 gallon in the tarm boiler will most definitely make the 110 easier to dial in. You'll probaly gain less than 10* F in overshoot after coming off an extended high burn. That extra mass of the second boiler really stabalizes the boiler temps throughout the whole cycle.

and when the time came for me to pull the plug and move south………just slap the oil gun on for the home buyer that wants to walk over and hit the thermostat.

The way we re going with energy prices everybody is thinking of the days when they move South. Its going to get lonely up here and I think an big oil run property don't sell for just that reason so I don't buy your logic. You can take the granite countertops with you, nobody will care about those. Energy is soon to be the ONLY thing.

I want a cute interface like that you showed, hey AC (coaltrol) get on the stick here , I want more lights and an ipad3 interface please. That way I can rush out and buy one instead of saving money for the town taxes

coalnewbie said;

Its going to get lonely up here and I think an big oil run property don't sell for just that reason so I don't buy your logic.

Ya lost me there newbie......Last spring my oil fill was 127 gal to add some fuel stabilizer. The fill prior to that was in 2008 when I went off oil for DHW genration with the Rheem DHW heater purchased with the 2008 stimulus check. House was heated by family room cast iron wood burner and when the property cleared wood ran out I plumbed in the HS Tarm-202 boiler in 82. I added the Harman TLC 2K six years ago. I don’t think I qualify as a big oil run property.

You can take the granite countertops with you, nobody will care about those. Energy is soon to be the ONLY thing.

They are plain vanilla Formica tops and they will stay. When I built the house in 79 it was with three flues to support the basement oil fired boiler the future basement coal fired boiler (82 HS-Tarm 202 coal fired boiler install) and the family room stove.

I want a cute interface like that you showed, hey AC (coaltrol) get on the stick here , I want more lights and an ipad3 interface please. That way I can rush out and buy one instead of saving money for the town taxes

Yea the 3M-50 stats were a splurge but none of that smart phone, I-Pad stuff just plain vanilla cell. I threw those in at the start of last heating season to check in on house temps from work after a few Tarm boiler out-fires last heating season.

Some of my stuff is home brew...........I need to put this DHW interface into my project box........ been draging my feet ........attached pic looks nasty but works like a champ.........need to keep the cat out of the basement and add a smart phone interface. The 240VAC cube relay will go in the box shown in the last pic. Those counters monitor the power up time of the 4.5KW elements on the Rheem, lower counter is the lower element. It's now tracking the on time of the 85 Watt TACO pump during a recharge of the Rheem.......yea over kill but none of this breaks the bank and it provides me some feedback to raise awareness of useage.

hey AC (coaltrol) get on the stick here

I did not know a Coaltrol could be used with this boiler.

Anybody running a Coaltrol on their WL110K?

Dick

I just read this excellent post. I really love the new Leisure Line boilers and the Anthrakings.

Any update since your last post in March on how well the system has been working for you Dick?

EarthWindandFire wrote:Any update since your last post in March on how well the system has been working for you Dick?

Hey Mark,

I’m slower than molasses in January! I’m still running on my Tarm for my DHW generation and heat for days like today rain/46F in the area. I have a pexsupply order coming with additional items; Taco 007, #90 Extrol Expansion Tank isolation flanges/valves, copper fittings etc..

I’m laying out my pump board (4'*6')for three circulators that will replace the two SV’s currently with a spare zone for future......maybe dump zone if needed. Have SS pipe for the WL110K and Type M baro.
Going to treat my Tarm-202 to the same pipe setup/upgrade.

My pump board will be laid out similar to this design minus the primary loop pump they show.......for a lot less $$$. http://hpscontrols.com/pdf/PDF%20diagrams/Series%20900/HP900300%20(PSS-3).pdf a Taco SR503 switching relay for pump control.

I’m a bit tight for space for the pump board location which will be centered below the two basement flues and spaced to clear that waste line on the basement wall.

I will run the WL110k and the Tarm – 202 similar to the boiler layout in the pic below. This layout has been discussed on the forum by steamup I believe....can’t put my finger on the post but the layout can be viewed here http://www.caleffi.us/en_US/caleffi/Details/News/files/HydSep102508.pdf page 11.

Pic #2 is the Closely Spaced Tee with isolation valve and tee's cut down to maintain 4D pipe dia spacing. I'll have temp wells set up for monitoring loop temps to see if this works out. If not I'll fall back to other layouts I have seen on this forum and other designsI have read about. From what I have read I feel with proper straight pipe lenghts in and out of the Cloesly Spaced Tee's I should be good to go. Could be some turbelance caused by that isolation valve in the middle of the CST but I will see on fire up with zone temp monitoring.

That’s it for now...........Dick

Shouldnt the pumps be pumping away?

http://completewatersystems.com/2011/04 ... pump-away/

No. The schematic was likely lifted from one in John Sieganthaler's book and part of a bigger primary secondary piping system. Sieganthaler almost always has the pumps on multiboiler schematics on the return side. He doesn't explain why. But I have a very practical reason why when one of the boilers is a coal boiler. Since coal boilers can not be turned off completely they can continue raise the boiler water temperature to the PRV (pressure relief valve) set point. This can occur during mild conditions and there is no demand for heat. When the PRV opens you lose water. In many installations the pumping away location (supply tapping) will have the pump higher than the RVP. This means the lost water may, might or will drain out of the pump. If water drains out of the impeller side of the pump the next call for heat can not be satisfied because there is no water to pump. Yes, the automatic refill might put water back into the system but many times there will be an air pocket. This air can only be automatically removed if the pump can pump. On the other hand if the pump is on the return it is likely low on the boiler, lower than the PRV. When the PRV releases the water in the boiler will keep the pump impeller wet. A much better design.

Yanche wrote:The schematic was likely lifted from one in John Sieganthaler's book

I found the original post of the boiler layout/discussion I was looking for. http://nepacrossroads.com/about11628.html

After reading the comments from Steamup and Yanche on this layout I felt comfortable to proceed.......which is still on paper. The only active work is on the pump board and that is proceding slowly. I don't have any of Sieganthaler's books just Holohan's Pumping Away. Keyed in on page 28 ""Pump Pressure Differential"" With both boiler pumps suction inlet's in close proximity to the expansion tank I felt I would not create any problems pumping into the boiler's return. The ET/boiler pumps will set below both boiler PRV's...........Dick

Yanche wrote:No. The schematic was likely lifted from one in John Sieganthaler's book and part of a bigger primary secondary piping system. Sieganthaler almost always has the pumps on multiboiler schematics on the return side. He doesn't explain why. But I have a very practical reason why when one of the boilers is a coal boiler. Since coal boilers can not be turned off completely they can continue raise the boiler water temperature to the PRV (pressure relief valve) set point. This can occur during mild conditions and there is no demand for heat. When the PRV opens you lose water. In many installations the pumping away location (supply tapping) will have the pump higher than the RVP. This means the lost water may, might or will drain out of the pump. If water drains out of the impeller side of the pump the next call for heat can not be satisfied because there is no water to pump. Yes, the automatic refill might put water back into the system but many times there will be an air pocket. This air can only be automatically removed if the pump can pump. On the other hand if the pump is on the return it is likely low on the boiler, lower than the PRV. When the PRV releases the water in the boiler will keep the pump impeller wet. A much better design.

Yikes!.

Good to know...

Progress report……..not a whole lot….maybe ready in late June for a test run of the WL110K. I have an old 80 gal water heater I can use for a load.

• Framed out pump board ¾” ply backer - 2*4 frame 1st coat of primer.

• Soldered up copper on the pump board nothing screwed down just resting on stand offs. Not the best with the propane torch.....all joints looked OK with triple inspection but I’m a shade tree plumber. I will pressure up with 15 lbs air
check for bubbles then 24hr soak. I would rather bench test before mounting to the basement wall……I have plenty of time to catch issues now.

• Old Weil McClain boiler prepped for removal. It’s a 79 install and I have leaks around the DHW coil. Back to running on electric for DHW……that is painful at $0.17KWH.

• Still need to work on wiring for the pumps and mount the Taco SR503 switching relay for pump control.

• 360 of pic’s around the pump board. Shout out if you see any concerns/issues from the pic’s……I’m a rookie at this.........electronics tech by trade working in the cable ind.

That’s it for now……….Dick

update on install with pics please? got it running yet?