Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:11 pm

lsayre wrote:The outcome of this is that the Citizens of the USA have just been handed the single largest tax increase in the history of the world.

Many civilized countries have better healthcare than the USA, and better outcomes than the USA, at much lower cost. The outcome of this is that the Citizens of the USA will spread the cost more evenly across the Citizens; and in the long run the costs will be lower.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:36 pm

rberq wrote: The outcome of this is that the Citizens of the USA will spread the cost more evenly across the Citizens; and in the long run the costs will be lower.

Nice theory, but given the crony capitalism we live under, fat chance. Do you think the medical establishment (which is already getting away with murder) will take less?
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:38 pm

rberq wrote:
Richard S. wrote:If you ... adjust your withholding so there is no refund... nothing to collect from.

Today, what happens if you adjust your withholding so that you underpay your taxes? And then file your tax return (or not) and still don't pay up? We'll come visit you in the Big House ....


Except that the healthcare law according to the IRS does not allow them to do that, the only punitive action they can make is to levy the fine and collect it from your refund. You've conveniently overlooked the article I cited. Even if the IRS could take actions like criminal proceedings that would go over like a lead balloon,

http://dailycaller.com/2010/04/05/irs-c ... ax-refund/

Speaking at the National Press Club on Monday, Shulman downplayed the IRS’s role in enforcing the recent overhaul of the health insurance industry by claiming the agency would not aggressively target individuals who don’t purchase coverage. He noted that the health-care bill expressly forbids the agency from freezing bank accounts, seizing assets or pursuing criminal charges, but when pressed said the IRS would most likely use tax refund offsets to penalize those that don’t comply with the mandate. The IRS uses refund offsets to collect from individuals that owe the federal government a delinquent debt.


Your Greece comment is very good one, they don;lt pay taxes because they are overwhelmed by them and lax enforcement.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:53 pm

rberq wrote:
lsayre wrote:The outcome of this is that the Citizens of the USA have just been handed the single largest tax increase in the history of the world.

Many civilized countries have better healthcare than the USA, and better outcomes than the USA, at much lower cost. The outcome of this is that the Citizens of the USA will spread the cost more evenly across the Citizens; and in the long run the costs will be lower.


From the government that gave you $400 hammers and $800 toilet seats, you expect lower costs?!?!

I hope you didn't type that with a straight face.

Hell, they paid $20 MILLION to ship nuts and bolts to Iraq!

Charlene Corley pleaded guilty in August of last year to conspiracy charges to commit wire fraud and money laundering after she and her sister overcharged the Department of Defense by more than $20 million in excess shipping charges.


http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5197739&page=1
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:33 pm

Jpete, American Greed did a feature story on those two sisters, it's an interesting program about how there is just never enough for some. They had one about a multi-millionaire doctor that was caught for billing discrepancies & it led to all kinds of other stuff, even went so far as reusing syringes & other consumable medical supplies to petty thief from stores.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: VigIIPeaBurner On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:56 pm

I heard a very interesting take on Roberts action today. He ruled it a tax as we know it is. Tax bills fall under the revenue clause. He did not rule it acceptable under the commerce rule. Commerce bills require a super majority of the Congress to repeal and can be filibustered to death. On the other hand, revenue bills cannot be filibustered and can pass on a simple majority. He's set an easier road to repeal and fired up everyone to get out and vote. Crafty if it was intentional ;)
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:02 pm

jpete wrote:From the government that gave you $400 hammers and $800 toilet seats, you expect lower costs?!?

I know where you are coming from. It's true that private business often does things more efficiently than government. But I work for a hospital, and when it comes to health insurance the private vs. government arrangement is surprisingly turned on its head. The more money that passes through an insurance company's hands, the more they can siphon off in profits. So at some level, their incentive is to keep health care inefficient and expensive. The practical and sensible reforms have come from Medicare. To cite one simple example, they now require us to report inpatient admissions where the person was previously an inpatient within the last 30 days. Why? Because if the patient is back so soon, maybe it is because we messed up the first time around, and that needs to be looked into. A second example that has been around for a number of years: the hospital is paid an average fee based on diagnosis, not on treatment rendered. Why? Think about a common procedure, appendectomy. Some will be straightforward and undramatic. Some will have complications and be harder to treat. And sometimes the hospital or doctor will screw up and give the patient an infection or damage other "parts", and it really gets expensive. But if Medicare cheerfully pays ten times as much for the screwup as for the good service, there is no financial incentive for healthcare providers to do it right -- just the opposite. Paying an average lets the hospital profit more if it is careful and efficient. Cutting corners to make more profit is forestalled by the army of malpractice lawyers waiting to pounce.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:35 pm

Why don't you stop it before you make someone cry.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/pe ... 19810.html
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: homecomfort On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:39 pm

we all pay a "tax" when people go to the emergency room with no insurance, and a personal "tax" when health care is withheld due to high insurance cost.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:19 pm

homecomfort wrote:we all pay a "tax" when people go to the emergency room with no insurance, and a personal "tax" when health care is withheld due to high insurance cost.


How did people survive before the 1971 HMO Act?
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:21 pm

rberq wrote:
jpete wrote:From the government that gave you $400 hammers and $800 toilet seats, you expect lower costs?!?

I know where you are coming from. It's true that private business often does things more efficiently than government. But I work for a hospital, and when it comes to health insurance the private vs. government arrangement is surprisingly turned on its head. The more money that passes through an insurance company's hands, the more they can siphon off in profits. So at some level, their incentive is to keep health care inefficient and expensive. The practical and sensible reforms have come from Medicare. To cite one simple example, they now require us to report inpatient admissions where the person was previously an inpatient within the last 30 days. Why? Because if the patient is back so soon, maybe it is because we messed up the first time around, and that needs to be looked into. A second example that has been around for a number of years: the hospital is paid an average fee based on diagnosis, not on treatment rendered. Why? Think about a common procedure, appendectomy. Some will be straightforward and undramatic. Some will have complications and be harder to treat. And sometimes the hospital or doctor will screw up and give the patient an infection or damage other "parts", and it really gets expensive. But if Medicare cheerfully pays ten times as much for the screwup as for the good service, there is no financial incentive for healthcare providers to do it right -- just the opposite. Paying an average lets the hospital profit more if it is careful and efficient. Cutting corners to make more profit is forestalled by the army of malpractice lawyers waiting to pounce.


An insurance company could do the same thing if there was an incentive to do so.

But thanks to the government refusing to apply the Commerce Clause to health insurance like they do to AAALLLLL other goods and services, there is basically no competition in the health insurance market so why try to improve?

And the government just said you MUST play their game or be fined by the government.

Smells like fascism to me.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Jun 30, 2012 7:41 am

jpete wrote:... thanks to the government refusing to apply the Commerce Clause to health insurance like they do to AAALLLLL other goods and services, there is basically no competition in the health insurance market so why try to improve?

But isn't that one of the things the ACA does -- regulate the health insurance market at a national level?

jpete wrote:And the government just said you MUST play their game or be fined by the government.

Which they say about many, many other things.
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:13 am

Hey Bob,
Do you have health insurance? Oh, you do? So I guess you welcome a bureaucrat getting in between you and your doctor. I guess you won't mind rationing either.
You are not the worst of the liberals here, but I would like to know what skin off your back it will be.

Go ahead and explain how this will encourage business.

Hey can you help me convert to Islam? That will make me exempt from the TAX I'm going to have to pay, which will increase every year after the SCYTL rigged election. I know you can't help me become an illegal alien invader, they seem to be exempt from all laws in the former USA.

I bet you don't even need to lock your door when you leave your country house.
Dann757
 

Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:17 am

rberq wrote:But isn't that one of the things the ACA does -- regulate the health insurance market at a national level?


No. There is still no competition across state lines. You can't buy Blue Cross of RI and I can't buy insurance in your state like we could with home owners, life, auto or any other type of insurance.

rberq wrote:Which they say about many, many other things.


What other thing does the government force you to purchase simply because you breathe?
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Re: Obamacare "Tax" Upheld by Supreme Court

PostBy: samhill On: Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:29 am

Jpete, we pay for everything that our tax dollar is spent on if we use it or not. I think it would be safe to say that at some point in time we will all use HC.
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