Romney tax plan helps rich most

Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:04 am

Maybe I should be more specific.

Public debt is generally never good.

The government doesn't have a job. It doesn't produce anything. Therefore, it only has one way of "paying off" the debt.

Which in reality, it can never do because of the reasons Larry listed.

So all PUBLIC debt is a drag on the economy.

Some private debt MIGHT be a good thing but that is highly individual. My wife, for example, is still paying student loans from over a decade ago for a career she hasn't worked in since forever.

Obviously, we've seen the result of people taking on debt they had no hope of repaying.
jpete
 
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:13 am

Whenever you take on debt at interest, you are speculating (gambling) upon it being a wise choice. Life's many inevitable twists, turns, and unexpected avenues often make what was initially perceived to be a value adding debt load into a value draining debt load. Just look at all of the house flippers who got caught out on the wrong side of a sure thing, and the millions of unfortunate honest homeowners who were not flippers, but who still got hung out to dry after going under water.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:40 am

jpete wrote:So all PUBLIC debt is a drag on the economy.


Roads and bridges, as long as they don't use too many gold bricks in building them are for the most part beneficial and more than pay for themselves. Today in NYC bridge tolls are used not to pay for bridges but to subsidize transit workers salaries. At one time NYC issued bonds to pay current city worker pay. Obviously a road to nowhere.

Both Federal and state governments issue bonds to pay for things. When those things include ,in effect, buying votes, and,when to pay off those bonds outlay exceeds income and money is created from nothing, we have the evils of today.

Proper economic use of credit creates wealth, but as you correctly point out improper use can also destroy it.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: homecomfort On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 2:13 pm

Romney quote: "I am not concerned about the very poor, they have a safety net". now Mitt"s idea of a very poor person is someone with off shore investments of less than say $10MIL. Their safety net is the other $9 mil. in tax sheltered investments. As for the really poor, like cannot afford to heat their home in winter poor, too bad for you, Romney-Ryan will take away all "entitlement,gov. giveaway programs, like social security, liheap".
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:43 pm

homecomfort wrote:Romney quote: "I am not concerned about the very poor, they have a safety net". now Mitt"s idea of a very poor person is someone with off shore investments of less than say $10MIL. Their safety net is the other $9 mil. in tax sheltered investments. As for the really poor, like cannot afford to heat their home in winter poor, too bad for you, Romney-Ryan will take away all "entitlement,gov. giveaway programs, like social security, liheap".


One could only hope!
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Ed.A wrote:
homecomfort wrote:Romney quote: "I am not concerned about the very poor, they have a safety net". now Mitt"s idea of a very poor person is someone with off shore investments of less than say $10MIL. Their safety net is the other $9 mil. in tax sheltered investments. As for the really poor, like cannot afford to heat their home in winter poor, too bad for you, Romney-Ryan will take away all "entitlement,gov. giveaway programs, like social security, liheap".


One could only hope!


You're too optimistic.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: homecomfort On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:08 am

ALL, of the republicans that I know that think like you guys, all collect on some form of entitlement. hypocrites. If you guys really are so rich, good for you guys, but you are all very selfish to boot.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:12 am

homecomfort wrote:ALL, of the republicans that I know that think like you guys, all collect on some form of entitlement. hypocrites. If you guys really are so rich, good for you guys, but you are all very selfish to boot.


Have you ever considered reading the book "The Virtue Of Selfishness", to find out what it really means to be selfish, vs. the evil connotation it has been given in our modern world?

http://marsexxx.com/ycnex/Ayn_Rand-The_Virtue_of_Selfishness.pdf

If a man is not permitted to find virtue and self worth (self esteem) and gain within his own personal sphere of rational self (I.E., selfish) interests and prideful accomplishments, he is left only with finding virtue and self esteem within irrational self disinterests and in prideless altruistic sacrifice. Tell me how life itself would function if you actually believed this to be the means by which man should properly exist.

Sacrifice clearly means to willfully trade or give up or abandon something of a greater value in return for a lesser value. Otherwise there has been no actual sacrifice, and in fact there has been gain. How can anyone live to the end of forever sacrificing greater value to lesser value in an effort to show that they have no pride or selfish interest in gain and accomplishment?

PS: In 2007 while campaigning for the office of the Presidency, Obama was quoted during a speech in stating boldly that "There is no virtue in selfishness!". If this is the case, then why does he selfishly block access to all facets of his personal life history?
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:51 am

Isayre, I guess it all depends on just what it is that you want to hear, Obama has come out with a lot including some drug use, he also produced a BC which wasn't good enough then a long form, still not good enough. Then you defend the fact that Romney & his % don't have to disclose earnings, where they are or how they got them. If you do some quick math what is known about his earnings & the work he did without compensation then he is in the wrong business since he never earned what he has already shown so he must be one heck of a shrewd investor. Just as it was always mentioned about the BC, why not just show what you say you aren't hiding.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:53 am

Ayn Rand is brilliant, but I do think she made a mistake in the use of the term selfish because it is an incorrect term for an aspect of human emotion. It conflicts with evolutionary theory. I think she understood this better than I but in her in your face style decided to use it. You have a tough row to hoe to convince people that selfish is good.

The better and true term is survival which is the first duty and strongest emotion of all. Without survival there is no hope of the subsidiary emotions of altruism, empathy, sympathy, and self sacrifice to come into play.

Codified systems of ethics are as an English friend says codswallop. That ethical system was written in our genes long ago. It's there to better our chance for survival as a species. It explains our behavior. Our emotions. We use our logic to satisfy our emotions or to resolve conflicts among them.

If I felt that I have a claim on the labor of someone else it would the the emotions of envy, covetousness, and greed coming to the fore.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: rberq On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:13 pm

franco b wrote:Ayn Rand is brilliant, but ...

Ummm -- based on the passage quoted above, she was either confused, or more likely trying to confuse others with high-sounding gobbledygook.

franco b wrote:ethical system was written in our genes long ago. It's there to better our chance for survival as a species.

Absolutely true. See, already you are smarter than Ayn Rand. Just not as good a self-promoter. :!:
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:31 pm

rberq wrote: franco b wrote:Ayn Rand is brilliant, but ...


Ummm -- based on the passage quoted above, she was either confused, or more likely trying to confuse others with high-sounding gobbledygook.

Because I think her mistaken in the term used does not lessen the truth of her assertions. As I explained it is her style and her decision to use it. I also don't know what her main target audience was.

As for gobbledegook I agree, but that's what happens when you get into a fight with those who codify ethics. You have to speak their language. The behavioral theorists in fashion today have invented a whole new fantasy jargon to describe what is plain as day.

Glad you at least partially agree.
franco b
 
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:35 pm

homecomfort wrote:ALL, of the republicans that I know that think like you guys, all collect on some form of entitlement. hypocrites. If you guys really are so rich, good for you guys, but you are all very selfish to boot.


Uhmm, no....jeeze you really are wrong ALOT.

I collect nothing, and as of last week we were ALL notified that from now on you will no-longer recieve the amount of benefits we paid into....how very selfish of me to think of all the Selfemployent taxes and oll the others that go into the sysytem and I won't get nearly what I paid in.

But for those 47% who don't pay Taxes...well we got them covered alright.
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:14 pm

This seems like a good place to put this. Unfortunately, those who already know this will be the only ones to read it and those who could use it will dismiss it out of hand.

http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/f ... ey-speech/

“So you think that money is the root of all evil?” said Francisco d’Anconia. “Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?
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Re: Romney tax plan helps rich most

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:52 pm

Yes I knew it, but could never hope to put it so brilliantly.

Particularly like:

"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, ‘Who is destroying the world? You are."

Explains a lot about our downward spiral.

Just a little niggle. I always known the aphorism as "desire is the root of all evil"
franco b
 
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