Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:40 pm

It's odd how I make a post towards Franco with the only political statement being that this could have been stopped by the ones in power but wasn't & all I get in response is a bunch of political crap about "ism's", being lazy, a hypocrite & just plain ranting. One even partially agrees with me but fails to realize it in his zest to disagree, get over losing already I clearly stated that there was plenty of blame to go around to once again get political out of the last several decades there was one family that had a member of it in a high WH position 20 out of 30 years & one party that was in a majority of the time so whats that tell a reasonable person?
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:56 pm

As to "isms", I feel that I should offer definitions of the terms objective and subjective (as "isms").

Per the Ayn Rand Lexicon:

Objectivism holds that:

1) Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

2) Reason (the faculty which identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses) is man’s only means of perceiving reality, his only source of knowledge, his only guide to action, and his basic means of survival.

3) Man—every man—is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.

4) The ideal political-economic system is laissez-faire capitalism. It is a system where men deal with one another, not as victims and executioners, nor as masters and slaves, but as traders, by free, voluntary exchange to mutual benefit. It is a system where no man may obtain any values from others by resorting to physical force, and no man may initiate the use of physical force against others. The government acts only as a policeman that protects man’s rights; it uses physical force only in retaliation and only against those who initiate its use, such as criminals or foreign invaders. In a system of full capitalism, there should be (but, historically, has not yet been) a complete separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons as the separation of state and church.

And its opposite per the same Lexicon: Subjectivism

Subjectivism is the belief that reality is not a firm absolute, but a fluid, plastic, indeterminate realm which can be altered, in whole or in part, by the consciousness of the perceiver—i.e., by his feelings, wishes or whims. It is the doctrine which holds that man—an entity of a specific nature, dealing with a universe of a specific nature—can, somehow, live, act and achieve his goals apart from and/or in contradiction to the facts of reality, i.e., apart from and/or in contradiction to his own nature and the nature of the universe. (This is the “mixed,” moderate or middle-of-the-road version of subjectivism. Pure or “extreme” subjectivism does not recognize the concept of identity, i.e., the fact that man or the universe or anything possesses a specific nature.)

My additions to this:

Objectivism recognizes the least common denominator for mankind as defined by the concept of and the full recognition of "I". As in "I built that" (and therefore I own it).
Subjectivism contends that "we" is the least common denominator for mankind, and therefore "you didn't build that" (because "we" did, and therefore we really own it)

Objectivism recognizes the full sovereignty of the individual (the identity, or the "I"). The "I" is fundamentally good provided that it is pursuing it's own rational self-interest and is neither sacrificing to others or sacrificing others to itself.
Subjectivism recognizes the full sovereignty of anything other than the individual. This recognition is usually granted to a god or the collective or the state or a supreme leader (who is effectively both a god and the state). The "I" apart from the collective is fundamentally evil and/or sinful in any such system, and therefore must be either enslaved by, or controlled and regulated by, or sacrificed upon the alter of the "we" (or the collective, be it mind, god, dictator, or state).

http://principlesofafreesociety.com/objective-laws/
Last edited by lsayre on Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:51 pm

Very impressive & long display of someone else but what does it all have to do with what I had asked in the first place? Very nice try at changing the whole thing into something else but really it was a very basic statement that I had actually made all on my own.
samhill
 
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:56 pm

This thread was originated by xaos. I believe that most of my posts within this thread have been mainly directed to his/her ultimate benefit, as I see within him (or her) someone who is of good heart and is thereby still reachable by means of persuasive logic and reason. I came to this conclusion when the answer to my inquiry about the slogan "From each according to his ability to each according to his need." was answered logically and sincerely.
Last edited by lsayre on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:14 pm

Well then Isayre, if IYO my heart is so evil & unreachable by persuasive logic & reason why not just try truth & facts? If xaos doesn't want me to post on his thread then he's free to say but I thought an open forum was just that.
samhill
 
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: lsayre On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:19 pm

samhill wrote:Well then Isayre, if IYO my heart is so evil & unreachable by persuasive logic & reason why not just try truth & facts? If xaos doesn't want me to post on his thread then he's free to say but I thought an open forum was just that.


I have said no such thing. I would hope fully that you likewise are of good heart. And you certainly have as much right to post here as I do. I am not the proprietor of this forum or even a moderator. If I have somehow offended you (albeit unintentionally) I apologize.

I have amended my post immediately above to explain why I feel there is still hope for xaos.
lsayre
 
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:44 pm

In that case I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your post & I too apologize. As a totally common self made person I sometimes tend to get off the porch & run with the big dogs when I should clearly know my place.
samhill
 
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:50 pm

lsayre wrote:1) Reality exists as an objective absolute—facts are facts, independent of man’s feelings, wishes, hopes or fears.

Damn rare that I disagree with you or what you quote, but here I have to.

Reality for man is how he views the world through a filter of basic instinct, his emotions. Whether this is objective or not, this is the only material we have to work with. To do otherwise, to demand conformance to objective fact is to fail. Man is what he is and that, only dimly understood because any effort to further understanding is evidently abhorrent to most.

True reality transcends what we regard as objective truth and lies in the spiritual realm since it can't be observed by our five senses. Our Native American tribes recognized this a long time ago.
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:36 am

The ultimate paradox in any belief in subjectivism (the belief that ultimate reality itself exists purely within the domain of the mind, some mind, any mind, be it your mind, my mind, the collective mind of man, the mind of the state, the mind of earth, wind, fire, water, plants, trees, etc.., or the mind of a god) is that every man/woman survives, thrives, prospers, achieves, and pursues/achieves happiness to the exact extent that he or she sins against this very belief and acknowledges the sovereignty of the "I", and it's need to pursue it's own rational self-interests, neither sacrificing to others or sacrificing others to itself.

It is rational to:
Provide for and care for ones rational self interest (I.E., the selfish interest of the "I") in ones own family and loved ones and friends
Work
Build
Achieve
Associate and/or make contracts freely and voluntarily
Consume the fruit of your labor
Act in self defense (either individually or through free and voluntary association)
Pursue happiness for ones self and ones rational self interests (including family, loved ones, and friends)
Seek and apply medical help for disease or bodily injury
Believe that things are as they appear, A is A, and that reality is real

It is irrational to:
Expect the collective mind alone to provide for and care for ones self, family and loved ones, and friends
Wait for a building to come from the collective mind alone, unearned by any rational achievement whatsoever of the "I".
Fail to achieve anything of personal value (either individually as the "I", or via free association)
Associate due strictly to the force and compulsion of, or the belief in, whomever possesses the ultimate mind
Defend and promote the mind of the collective, the state, etc... through the compulsion of slavery and/or any other means of force directed at or upon the very "I" itself.
Believe that others have any legal or moral claim upon the fruit of your labor (that the needs of others place a noose upon the neck of your ability, or to phrase it differently, to believe that "from each according to his ability to each according to his need" makes sense).
Believe that it is better to give than to receive, and ultimately be willing to prove it fully by receiving nothing (even food or water). Yes, eating and drinking are the ultimate act of and acknowledgement of the "I".
Make contracts involuntarily
Seek spiritual (or mind) help alone for disease or bodily injury
Believe that reality can be altered, things are not necessarily as they appear, A can sometimes be willed into becoming B, reality is what "we" make it, and ultimately that physical reality itself is not real.
lsayre
 
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Re: Obama Tax Cuts Rejected In House

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:29 pm

The above is mostly rational, but what is the point of trying to impose rationality on that which is seemingly irrational?

It is rational for both of us to wish to be happy, yet what makes you happy could be very different from what makes me happy. The reality changes with the individual. That's why so many attempts to create utopias have failed and is why the above exercise in rational thought also fails because ultimately it to is irrational. You don't machine brass or aluminum in the same way as steel. Reality is working with and understanding your material.

We are not Dr. Spock. And Dr. Spock is not Dr. Spock either because if he was he could not exist because he fly's in the face of all we know about the evolution of species.

We are the product of our four grandparents and they also going back for millions of years. Yet in those billions of letters of genetic code each generation has a few letters whose sequence is a bit altered. Mostly they mean nothing but every so often a Richard Feynman or Newton, or Einstein is born and our perception of reality changes. With the exception of those of pure African blood we also have a bit of Neanderthal code in our genome.

Our emotions govern how we react to the outside world and are that way because they have stood the test of time in our survival.They are not going to change anytime soon. We don't trust outsiders. We have an illogical adherence to political party or to a sports team. We are proud when our Olympian athletes win.

We are so incredibly lucky in having founding fathers that understood the nature of human beings and crafted a means for each to best realize the potential for both the individual and country. They recognized reality.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
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