AP news wire: Social Security no longer pays off

samhill wrote:I'm sorry but this Country is no where near down & out & I'm proud to say & believe that with all my American heart.

I don't doubt at all the sincerity with which you say that. It's a fine emotion, but what is the answer when just about all who are regarded as having expertise in economic matters say we are in an untenable position. That even if government were to confiscate all wealth it would not be enough. Default must and will come either through economic collapse or through accelerating inflation.

I don't really expect any of this to make sense to you. Nowhere did I say we should CHANGE any ideas that the Country was founded on at thier base meaning. I do know that sam, whose political outlooks & mine are way different & franco can speak on things with the experience of--been there, done that knowledge. You know, back in the 60's & 70' people like Hoffman & his crew did everything they could to tear the current govt apart, problem being, once they got into a posistion where they could actually do some good, they had no alternative plan & were so into the making money scene, I guess it didn't seem that important anymore. By the way, I said "with ALL my heart" and I think you'd be surprised at the number of people it does make sense to.

jpete wrote:So you believe in the country with your heart, but you think we should change the ideas it was founded on?
That makes sense.

To who I have NO idea.

Franco, what the heck is money & who do we owe? This country has written off debts all over the world, how would some country go about collecting? Seems to me all these countries could get together & collectively decide to start all over again with a clean slate at any time. Could it be that the reasoning b the GOP every once in a while allow all these so called 1% Americans to bring all their riches back every now & then, any so called tax haven could at their whim say that those funds are now theirs, wouldn't that be a kick in the butt.

samhill wrote:Franco, what the heck is money & who do we owe? This country has written off debts all over the world, how would some country go about collecting? Seems to me all these countries could get together & collectively decide to start all over again with a clean slate at any time. Could it be that the reasoning b the GOP every once in a while allow all these so called 1% Americans to bring all their riches back every now & then, any so called tax haven could at their whim say that those funds are now theirs, wouldn't that be a kick in the butt.

Yes, you are right in the overall thought. This country as well as many others must and will default in time. I don't think there will be much change in the abuses you point out though and the rich will fare a lot better if the default is done by inflation. If you had given me a no interest loan in 1978 and I now paid it back, in effect I would default on two thirds of the debt with the lower value dollar. If your loan were tied to inflation i would have to pay you 3.5 times more than you gave me. This is the course of default we are on and one guess as to who will be hurt the most.

Social Security is already defaulting on its promise to tie payments to the rate of inflation. By changing how inflation is calculated to reflect about half the actual rate, payments are lowered.

Look Sam you can have all the Hopey Changey feelings you want but it won't change the simple fact that we are on a downward spiral that I've no doubt puts America in serious peril. 47% pay no taxes, 100 Million, that's 1/3rd of the US population, recieve Welfare. We spend way more than we bring in and even if we try what France ( I'm sure your favorite counrty) is doing by raising taxes to 75% over a Million Dollars it won't put a dent in our debt.

Please excuse the monotone voice over but most Accountants I know aren't exactly the the life of the party either.\, but he explains the How and Why of where we are headed.
http://americanmoxie.us/2012/08/07/gett ... -the-eyes/

I know you most likely won't read this but I'll put it out anyway, it's a little long but explains what has worked & what hasn't & how we got here. It's easy to blame the one in office now but it goes farther back than that, didn't get here overnight & won't get back fast either. Be careful what you wish for, unless if you happen to be a lot better off & just burn coal for the pure enjoyment it can bring.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... h-20111109

I for one am not stupid enough to deny all this didn't happen overnight--the piece of crap went on a platform of change & I'm sorry, but I don't/haven't seen any of that in the world I'm affiliated with--the man is a liar & a sneak--I don't give a crap about the past, I live in today & the present POTUS has not anyway near fulfilled his platform promises---bottom line--I don't give a damn about Rep/Dem, I give a damn about this Country of ours.

freetown fred wrote:I don't really expect any of this to make sense to you. Nowhere did I say we should CHANGE any ideas that the Country was founded on at thier base meaning.

So what does it mean when you say "it's not 1700 anymore"?

Are all men still created equal or not?

Does government govern at the consent of the governed?

How about the Bill of Rights? Which of them would you expect are "different" now?

The FF didn't pluck those ideas out of the air. They weren't even new ideas at the time. But it was the first time all those ideas existed in the same place, at the same time under a government that allegedly allowed people to run their own lives.

And now you say that times have changed to a point where at least some of it is null and void. I'd be interested in hearing which parts.

samhill wrote:I've said it before Jpete & I'll say it again simply because you keep reminding me. For someone that professes to be so against this Country & Gov. policies you sure have no problem taking every Gov. handout you can get & have no problem biting the hand that feeds you. IMHO & it's just that (nothing personal) but that kind of thinking is one of the biggest problems this country has today. I'm sorry but this Country is no where near down & out & I'm proud to say & believe that with all my American heart.

You act like I'm a career welfare case Sam.

You know what policies I'm against? The ones that made it possible to ship my job to Mexico.

I've paid taxes since I was 14, and I fully expect to pay more later. I'm not the problem Sam. As much as you'd like to make it look like I am.

You can spew the nationalist dogma all you want. But simple math says we can't keep printing money with no end.

I never said anything about null & voidjpete, nothing personal, but it's hard to talk to someone that thinks they've got the grand scope of things all figured out. You have a good knowledge of some things, but might I suggest you look into the concept of teachability? It's not 1700 anymore??? I think it probably means exactly what it says--let me try slower for you--it's not 1700 anymore--I hope that helped.

jpete wrote:

freetown fred wrote:I don't really expect any of this to make sense to you. Nowhere did I say we should CHANGE any ideas that the Country was founded on at thier base meaning.

So what does it mean when you say "it's not 1700 anymore"?

Are all men still created equal or not?

Does government govern at the consent of the governed?

How about the Bill of Rights? Which of them would you expect are "different" now?

The FF didn't pluck those ideas out of the air. They weren't even new ideas at the time. But it was the first time all those ideas existed in the same place, at the same time under a government that allegedly allowed people to run their own lives.

And now you say that times have changed to a point where at least some of it is null and void. I'd be interested in hearing which parts.

So what I hear you saying is that the Constitution enables free men to live freely in a free countr ?? Yet when it effects YOU ( your company moving to Mexico) you are against the right/policy that the company owner has, to do that???

jpete wrote:

samhill wrote:I've said it before Jpete & I'll say it again simply because you keep reminding me. For someone that professes to be so against this Country & Gov. policies you sure have no problem taking every Gov. handout you can get & have no problem biting the hand that feeds you. IMHO & it's just that (nothing personal) but that kind of thinking is one of the biggest problems this country has today. I'm sorry but this Country is no where near down & out & I'm proud to say & believe that with all my American heart.

You act like I'm a career welfare case Sam.

You know what policies I'm against? The ones that made it possible to ship my job to Mexico.

I've paid taxes since I was 14, and I fully expect to pay more later. I'm not the problem Sam. As much as you'd like to make it look like I am.

You can spew the nationalist dogma all you want. But simple math says we can't keep printing money with no end.

Early on much of the Federal Governments revenue came from tariffs on foreign goods. Then Nixon opened the door to China (a move he had to do in conjunction with taking the Dollar off of the gold standard and destroying its intrinsic value). Then along came NAFTA and CAFTA, and in all of this instead of tariffs being very good they were very bad, and as such they needed to be eliminated. That opened the flood gates and permitted companies to move out and reap the benefit, leaving the American workers behind and unemployed. And even if they didn't move out, they could now purchase cheap foreign raw materials, leaving yet more Americans unemployed (but in a more sanitary and insidious manner).

I see jpete merely wanting us to return to the way our Government was funded before it decided that it had to destroy the American dream by taxing its workers to death while giving the foreign nations goods a free ride into our homes.

I'd wager that pre 1970 (the last year we were on a gold standard) 90% or more of what was in the average American home was made in the USA. Today 90% or more is made elsewhere, or at the very least the materials came from elsewhere. During that time-frame, even Wal-Mart went from being made in America to being made in China, etc...

We're not being flooded with foreign made crap, all that junk is made from specs given by American companies that use foreign workers. We are competing against ourselves because of greed including just about all walks of life & range of incomes except that the ultra rich are the ones that can afford to play the game simply because they make the rules. Decades ago they would just about have to throw a few crumbs but not any longer. The worse part is we all put them there & kept them but refuse to admit that we have been taken for suckers, we aren't buying Hoes or Wrongs but Maytag's & GE's & all the rest that are named the same but aren't anywhere near what they were. You no longer hear the cry for term limits that we did a short time ago, that was just another smokescreen, it's back to good old back room politics.

Nearly everything today is plastic. The resins that make plastic come from oil, and we now import 2/3 of the oil we consume, so even if we made all of the plastic items found in our homes and vehicles we would still be using foreign sourced raw materials for which dollars are flowing off-shore or to Canada or Mexico.

When Wal-Mart went Chinese it nearly bankrupted Rubbermaid.