If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:49 am

Whoa, you know it's getting heated when Freddy chimes in! Freddy is probably the most venerated, kind, decent, hard-working, creative guy on this forum. A lot of others a close second. I appreciate Freddy's reference to the Bible; I've been asking myself which of the 7 deadly sins has me fooled each day. Try it. Obama has been effectively using ENVY to divide us all with excellent results.


jpete wrote:The last war that threatened to take away our rights was around 1812. All the others since were for political or economic reasons.

The Founding Fathers were called "patriots" as they were fighting their government so don't say a patriot can never merely criticize his government. That's nationalism and it was tried in Germany in the late 30's and didn't work out so well for anyone involved.


Jpete, I wonder if you write your own history. The way I see it, you contradicted yourself again in one short quote.

WWI - rescue Europe from fascism.
WWII - what are you serious? You got me boiling mad when you said Pearl Harbor was OUR fault many months ago. WWII for political reasons? Hitler had blitzkreig'ed most of Europe and was trying for England! WTF! The Brits had developed RADAR and had 600 miles of coast defended by the time The Luftwaffe started bombing CIVILIAN targets! The Royal Air Force could process the incoming enemy and scramble to meet them in 15 minutes. This was for the very survival of England and freedom against the Third Reich.
Korean War - stop the march of world communist domination.
Viet Nam - same thing- domino effect, troops hobbled by bad planning.
Cold War - ideological conflict to PRESERVE FREEDOM
Even Freetown Fred is getting sucked into this current insanity. I always appreciate his service and patriotism, the guy walked the walk. Another venerated member of this great COAL FORUM.

Sorry you don't have any national pride, freedom isn't free, it's been paid for by Americans who sacrificed everything for the sake of the country.

Sorry to go off topic.
Dann757
 

Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:02 am

It's a matter of perspective. I found this on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_as_theft
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:04 am

Dann757 wrote:Whoa, you know it's getting heated when Freddy chimes in! Freddy is probably the most venerated, kind, decent, hard-working, creative guy on this forum. A lot of others a close second. I appreciate Freddy's reference to the Bible; I've been asking myself which of the 7 deadly sins has me fooled each day. Try it. Obama has been effectively using ENVY to divide us all with excellent results.


jpete wrote:The last war that threatened to take away our rights was around 1812. All the others since were for political or economic reasons.

The Founding Fathers were called "patriots" as they were fighting their government so don't say a patriot can never merely criticize his government. That's nationalism and it was tried in Germany in the late 30's and didn't work out so well for anyone involved.


Jpete, I wonder if you write your own history. The way I see it, you contradicted yourself again in one short quote.

WWI - rescue Europe from fascism.
WWII - what are you serious? You got me boiling mad when you said Pearl Harbor was OUR fault many months ago. WWII for political reasons? Hitler had blitzkreig'ed most of Europe and was trying for England! WTF! The Brits had developed RADAR and had 600 miles of coast defended by the time The Luftwaffe started bombing CIVILIAN targets! The Royal Air Force could process the incoming enemy and scramble to meet them in 15 minutes. This was for the very survival of England and freedom against the Third Reich.
Korean War - stop the march of world communist domination.
Viet Nam - same thing- domino effect, troops hobbled by bad planning.
Cold War - ideological conflict to PRESERVE FREEDOM
Even Freetown Fred is getting sucked into this current insanity. I always appreciate his service and patriotism, the guy walked the walk. Another venerated member of this great COAL FORUM.

Sorry you don't have any national pride, freedom isn't free, it's been paid for by Americans who sacrificed everything for the sake of the country.

Sorry to go off topic.


Now square up all those conflicts with the Constitution.

Why did Washington and Jefferson warn about entangling alliances with foreign nations?

Why would I be proud of a government that violates it's alleged principles daily while impoverishing it's residents?

That makes you proud?

And seriously? Vietnam? Even MacNamara admitted we went to war over a lie. 60k Americans over an event that never happened makes you proud?
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:15 am

Read the Navy files and you will see that the battleship Maine blew up due to the spontaneous combustion of its bit coal, and not because the Spanish sank it. Spanish American War

As jpete stated McNamara when nearing his death bed admitted (see video on YouTube of his speech) that the Gulf of Tonkin incident never happened. Vietnam War

We loaded the Lusitania with arms and bombs and the Germans told us well in advance (even going to the extreme of taking out ads in 50 major newspapers) that they would sink it, but we sent it and its passengers to their death anyway. And even if the warnings were ignored, do you sanely send passenger vessels out on joy rides into combatant waters in time of war? WWI

A bunch of lunatic Saudi citizens fly planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (and almost the White House), so we invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
Last edited by lsayre on Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:23 am

To get back on topic, I don't think *ALL* taxation is theft.

I do sort of like Thomas Paine's idea from "Agrarian Justice" where he outlines a type of "Social Security" program funded through an estate tax.

The reason being that the deceased will never miss the money and the heirs had not yet taken possession of it so it was "fair" for the government to take it.

You really have to read and think about what he's saying. It's counter to what many of us think and feel today.

Unfortunately, we'd have to live under a moral government to make a system like this work and we don't but it's an interesting idea.
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: freetown fred On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:55 am

Ya know, if I research enough & read & listen enough, eventually I'm going to find things from people that believe exactly as I do. How touching to take to heart a death bed confession. Good way to get into Heaven I suspect. :clap: toothy
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:39 am

freetown fred wrote:Ya know, if I research enough & read & listen enough, eventually I'm going to find things from people that believe exactly as I do. How touching to take to heart a death bed confession. Good way to get into Heaven I suspect. :clap: toothy


Hardly a "death bed confession".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AaGVAipGp0
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: homecomfort On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:48 am

we all know that without some source of government revenue, we, would not have a civilized society as we know it. 14.1% on millions of unearned income, now that is theft, of the public's treasury.
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:03 am

You refute your own point Homecomfort. I have yet to see you post anything civil in here yet. Which country are you from? ;)

Kevin
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: plumb-r On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:38 am

General Electric posted a 12 billion dollar profit and paid less US tax than "homecomfort" did. Romney one individual paid nearly 2 million dollars in taxes. What's immoral is what people that work for the government take as pay. Teachers and the like are mostly all overpaid. Romney took NO pay when he was governor. Did Obama take his pay last year? He has free room and board, heck his kids get to vacation to places like Mexico on our dime? :? I just don't understand people! :bang: The choice is clear. :o
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:03 pm

homecomfort wrote:we all know that without some source of government revenue, we, would not have a civilized society as we know it.


That is acceptable. That is about how I would summarize this topic.

homecomfort wrote:14.1% on millions of unearned income, now that is theft, of the public's treasury.


That is absurd. If you're referring to Romney, that is capital gains tax. So the money he earned by working the free enterprise system, legally; is theft?
How is it unearned? You're the typical envious lib, always have your face in other people's business.
You have bought into the class warfare that Obama is using as part of his plan to fundamentally change this country and the world to Marxism.

As they say Marxism is great until you run out of other people's money.

The Maine: not proven.
The Lusitania: not proven. The guy that has been diving on the wreck has yet to find any signs of an explosion that would have peeled the hull outwards.
Sorry the human race has a history of conflict, The United States has done more to preserve freedom than any other empire in the history of the world.

Why do liberals always jump to criticize their own country?
Dann757
 

Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: samhill On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:18 pm

Read what you wrote Dann, it's exactly what I have been saying, income is income. You stated that Romney Earned that money by Working the free enterprise system. Then you ask "how is it unearned", it's not IMO no income is unearned. Then you go on with your usual Dann rant. The only reason that there is even such a thing as unearned income is because that is what those that make the laws & lobby earn.
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:34 pm

Dann757 wrote:
The Lusitania: not proven. The guy that has been diving on the wreck has yet to find any signs of an explosion that would have peeled the hull outwards.
Sorry the human race has a history of conflict, The United States has done more to preserve freedom than any other empire in the history of the world.

Why do liberals always jump to criticize their own country?


The Lusitania was torpedoed due to it being used to carry illegal war material.

http://www.archaeology.org/0901/trenches/lusitania.html

And I'm glad you said "empire". I thought we fought a war to get away from empire, not start our own. Where is that in the Constitution?
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Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: Dann757 On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:35 pm

Jpete, I always celebrate your love of the Constitution. I don't have the energy right now to get into a Lusitania arguement. I will look into if it was proven that it had munitions but I don't think it has been proven.

It was torpedoed by a German sub right? How much do you think they would have respected the constitution if they hadn't been defeated?

Back to topic, I think the citizens have to be moral as well as the government. didn't this country provide the highest standard of living for most of it's existance?

If they keep pushing this socialism and Marxism, we'll have taxes on the back burner as we lose more and more freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution.

samhill wrote:Read what you wrote Dann, it's exactly what I have been saying, income is income. You stated that Romney Earned that money by Working the free enterprise system. Then you ask "how is it unearned", it's not IMO no income is unearned. Then you go on with your usual Dann rant. The only reason that there is even such a thing as unearned income is because that is what those that make the laws & lobby earn


I can't even figure out what you're talking about. We used to celebrate and strive for success in this country; now all the commie propaganda has taken effect and millions of rubes and dupes think every misfortune is caused by "the rich". Poppycock.
Dann757
 

Re: If taxation is theft, is it moral to work for the government

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:20 pm

The Germans took out full page ads in multiple US newspapers telling us what they would do to the Lusitania if we sent it to Britain in an effort to supply their war machine while we falsely pretended to be an innocent neutral party. There was plenty of advanced warning. We knew exactly what they would do, and that is why it sailed. It is insane to send passenger luxury cruise liners on joy rides into combatant waters infested by enemy submarines.

The sides in WW1 were not nearly as distinctly defined as good and evil as they were in WW2, and some well renowned US Congressmen and prominent businessmen wanted us to enter the war on the side of Germany. Our President needed something to turn the tide of the masses and have us see Germany distinctly as the evil enemy. The Lusitania was that something.
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