please review my boiler install plan

please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: gearhead On: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:11 pm

Great site and forum! I've spent a lot of time reading post here and concluded this is the place for a DIYer like myself to have a first time boiler installation plan reviewed. I'm not sure if I should go with 1-1/2" or 2" for my primary and secondary loops :?: Feeds off the secondary will be 1" to the pex manifold. Not sure if the Taco 003B will be enough with 4' of head to the radiant tubing, I was thinking of using the 00R on low. I'm worried about dirt/scale getting into the system and would like to install either a Wye screen or Spiro dirt trap on the boiler outlet (diagram shows it on the return), will that interrupt flow? Rule of thumb I've read for hydraulic seperation is not more than 4xD. Diagram doesn't represent lengths of runs or routing. Just bought a AA130 and junking my old forced air shelled corn furnace, which was great at $2.50 per bushel six years ago - now at $8 I might as well be heating with electric :!: Any comments would be great good or bad.
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gearhead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AA
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: steamup On: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:28 am

You have serveral problems here. First you only need 1-1/4" pipe with the AA-130 unless you have a super long run or have plans for a larger boiler. 1-1/4" size pipe will move all the heat that the aa130 will produce.

Not sure why you think you need 1-1/2" and 2" pipe. A properly designed system at 20 deg. delta t will move 130,000 btuh with 1-1/4" pipe, up to 200,000 btuh with 1-1/2" pipe and 400,000 btuh with 2" pipe.

The 4900 air separator is a commercial model. It will cost several hundred dollars and is only available starting at 2". I have never installed dirt separation in a residential system. If you think you need it, buy a spirotherm Junior combination unit. They are available in smaller sizes.

Look at your primary/secondary loop carefully. The diagram you have sketched shows a primary, secondary, tertiary system with no secondary pump.

Check your head requirements carefully on your radiant system needs. There is no way a 003 pump is adequate for 240 feet of tubing. I would use a 00R pump as a minimum, then you can always to to a higher speed if you are low on estimating head or flow requirments.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: gearhead On: Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:50 pm

thankyou for the critique, I was going with 1-1/2" black pipe and would have used 1-1/4" in copper. I was worried about pipe offering more of a restriction. On the secondary, I have the circulator feeding the radiant manifold drawing off the secondary. Is there a better way to pipe a primary secondary setup? Hydraulic seperation seems to be a big deal from what I've read and trying to sort all of this out is tuff for a novice. From what I've read primary secondary is the way to go - now I'm not sure. I have a secondary but without the loop or circulator in the diagram. When the radiant circulator turns the secondary will be circulating and thought was it would pull hot water from the hydraulic seperation T. Should I have the primary circulator run when the boiler is firing while the thermostat isn't calling for heat (primary on when thermostat calls for heat)?
gearhead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AA
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: Yanche On: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:41 pm

Please look a my tutorial post on piping systems. It will answer many of your design questions.

Yanche's Toolbox, Piping & Circulator Selection Method
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: steamup On: Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:07 pm

1-1/4" black iron has a larger pipe diameter and lower friction loss at a given gpm than type M copper.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: Rob R. On: Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:21 am

Your diagram looks a lot more complicated than it needs to be...at least in my opinion. What is wrong with a 1.25" primary loop around the boiler with two closely spaced tee's for the radiant zone? Run the primary circulator off the triple aquastat, and connect the end switch from your zone control to the triple aquastat as well.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: gearhead On: Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:43 pm

Thanks for the recommendations. I'll use 1-1/4" pipe for the loop. I threw out the old diagram.
gearhead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AA
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:23 am

Here is a basic diagram for a primary/secondary setup with a radiant zone. You don't have to follow it, but it does show how simple it can be.

Image
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: gearhead On: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:22 pm

I think I'm on the right track now, 1-1/4" pipe, original drawing is trashed. I plan to add hot water base board in the future, hot tub and possibly a garage floor someday to the loop so, I wanted to make sure each loop wasn't suffering from being down stream from the last heat load with a series loop. I realize that I'll need a mixing valve on any pex radiant circuits. What do you think of the new drawing?
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gearhead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AA
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: steamup On: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:42 pm

gearhead wrote:I think I'm on the right track now, 1-1/4" pipe, original drawing is trashed. I plan to add hot water base board in the future, hot tub and possibly a garage floor someday to the loop so, I wanted to make sure each loop wasn't suffering from being down stream from the last heat load with a series loop. I realize that I'll need a mixing valve on any pex radiant circuits. What do you think of the new drawing?



Looks better, The vertical common pipe must be sized to the sum of the zone pumps. A little oversizing would not hurt. I would use 1-1/2" pipe as minimum. If you used 2" pipe, it would act more like a hydraulic separator and naturally separate dirt/air from the system. Easily made with tees and nipples.
steamup
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson AA-130, Keystoker K-6
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: HS Tarm 502 Wood/Coal/Oil
Coal Size/Type: pea, buck, rice

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:42 pm

Welcome to the forum!! I got nothing to add regarding the boiler piping design, I am a stove guy myself.

But I had to give you an "atta guy" for being so receptive to the critique given about your design. :up:

I see many questions like yours asked and too many times when the critique is given the OP takes it like the responder called their baby ugly or something.
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: please review my boiler install plan

PostBy: gearhead On: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:58 pm

titleist1 wrote:Welcome to the forum!! I got nothing to add regarding the boiler piping design, I am a stove guy myself.

But I had to give you an "atta guy" for being so receptive to the critique given about your design. :up:

I see many questions like yours asked and too many times when the critique is given the OP takes it like the responder called their baby ugly or something.


thanks, I need all the help I can get! Doesn't take much reading around on other forums to figure out this is the best forum around when it comes to all types of heating, folks on here have experience and that's what counts. Nice to see others take time to help us dumb people (novices and yes I'm pointing right at myself) figure out things they probably should hire done but where's the fun in that? learn a lot in the process too. I'm hoping the radiant floors make the other half forget how much $ it took from scratch :)

steamup wrote:
gearhead wrote:I think I'm on the right track now, 1-1/4" pipe, original drawing is trashed. I plan to add hot water base board in the future, hot tub and possibly a garage floor someday to the loop so, I wanted to make sure each loop wasn't suffering from being down stream from the last heat load with a series loop. I realize that I'll need a mixing valve on any pex radiant circuits. What do you think of the new drawing?



Looks better, The vertical common pipe must be sized to the sum of the zone pumps. A little oversizing would not hurt. I would use 1-1/2" pipe as minimum. If you used 2" pipe, it would act more like a hydraulic separator and naturally separate dirt/air from the system. Easily made with tees and nipples.


going with a 2" manifold but keep the pipe coming out of the boiler at 1-1/4"
thanks guys for the help, think I have a handle on it, can post picks when I start piecing it together. Used Yanche's toolbox to do my calculations, took an evening to get my mind wrapped around the equations... never knew plumbing was so damn complicated :!:
gearhead
 
Stove/Furnace Make: AA
Stove/Furnace Model: 130

Visit Lehigh Anthracite