Can I Run My Circulator....

Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:33 am

...against a closed valve without burning it out? For extended periods of time?
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: whistlenut On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:39 am

WHY would you want to do that?????????????????? It will burn out at some point, so what is the logic you are using? WTF R U thinkin'? Did you eat enormous amounts of lead paint as a kid? :shock: :hammer: :bang: bop2 :bang:
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: coalkirk On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:49 am

I'm guessing this is an after the fact kinda question. :P
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal


Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: whistlenut On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:53 am

A new 007 or 008R is about 90.00, if that is the real question. Did you eat some 'Rock Wool' insulation at some time in the past?
whistlenut
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130's,260's, AHS130&260's,EFM900,GJ&VanWert
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Franks Boiler,Itasca415,NYer130,Van Wert
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Yellow Flame
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Alaska-4,Keystoker-2,
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Alaska,Gibraltor,Keystone,Vc Vigilant 2
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Van Wert, NYer's, Ford,Jensen.
Coal Size/Type: Rice,Buck,Pea,Nut&Stove
Other Heating: Oil HWBB

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:58 am

I don't want to do that.

The wife lost her job, and money is tight atm.

I take it from your reply that the pump will burn out, so thanks, sort of, for the answer.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: freetown fred On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:14 am

Ya gotta understand about whistlenut---Dr phil he ain't toothy Just a real knowledgable coal burner. Doug & me are trying to work on our social skills-- point being, yep, I think you got the gist of the response. ;)
kstills wrote:I don't want to do that.

The wife lost her job, and money is tight atm.

I take it from your reply that the pump will burn out, so thanks, sort of, for the answer.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: kstills On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:34 am

freetown fred wrote:Ya gotta understand about whistlenut---Dr phil he ain't toothy Just a real knowledgable coal burner. Doug & me are trying to work on our social skills-- point being, yep, I think you got the gist of the response. ;)
kstills wrote:I don't want to do that.

The wife lost her job, and money is tight atm.

I take it from your reply that the pump will burn out, so thanks, sort of, for the answer.



Although it's not considered a good idea...
and I wouldn't recommend that any pump be dead headed for any extended period of time, I have come across a Taco 007 that had been dead headed for 2-1/2 winters, and it was just fine. It's the BIG pumps that you have to worry about. When dead headed, you are pouring a SIGNIFICANT amount of energy into a small amount of water and super heating it. When the pressure is dropped, the water is no longer water, but becomes steam and occupies 1700 times more space than it used to when it was water. I once saw the power head from a Grundfos circulator that had been blown through two sheet rock walls and embedded in a cinder block wall. It can happen, but it takes time and when talking about small circulators is not as critical. Better safe than sorry just the same. ME


http://dev.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread ... -circ-pump

It would seem that the problem with burning out the pump would be:

A) the size of the pump (small, it's a Taco 007X variable speed set for low)
B) dwell time of liquid in the pump (~40-60minutes during a heat call)
C) the delta of the water during that time from the frictional energy put into it from the pump

So maybe it can be done in a pinch.
kstills
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: WL 110
Stove/Furnace Make: Leisure Line

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:57 am

kstills wrote:...against a closed valve without burning it out? For extended periods of time?


Assuming this is a relatively small circulator like a Taco 007, if it happened by accident and was only for a few hours, it shouldn't bother anything. It isn't something you would want to do on purpose or routinely.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:59 am

Ya gotta understand about whistlenut---Dr phil he ain't


I thought he was kind and considerate your gettin' soft Fred, it's time for you to get buried in winters problems. In the old days he used to write under the ghost name of Ann Landers.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93,
Baseburners & Antiques: Invader 2 Wings Best, Glenwood #8 + Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice, Chestnut
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:51 am

I submit that it will do no harm. The electric motor does more real work when MOVING a liquid and closing the valve stops the movement. The friction involved in spinning the impeller will not equal the rated temp limit of the circulator on the output of a boiler that is set at over *200. The motor is technically doing less work. I have moved *260 degree water when I had a wood boiler and did not damage my circulators. Probably didnt help them either. ;) My 0010 shoving water 24/7 through 2 500 ft. loops of pex is doing more work them if it was just spinning in place. Dont ask why I have two 500 ft. loops.

kevin

By all means, step on me and educate me if this is and can be proven to be wrong.
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:06 pm

EVER run a shop vac when the hose plugged??? What happened?? The fan what? IT went faster! Why?
Because it could not move any air and with out that resistance the fan simple spun and the motor went to full speed as if it were not attached to a fan.

The same will be true for your circulator -->IF<-- it is pushing -->AT<-- the restriction

NEVER restrict the flow of liquid to a wet system pump - that will cause a cavitation
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:14 pm

Hee Hee! And it get you for a response!! :shock: Super. So I take it the overrev is bad and the cavitation will ruin the impeller????

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:27 pm

KLook wrote:Hee Hee! And it get you for a response!! :shock: Super. So I take it the overrev is bad and the cavitation will ruin the impeller????

Kevin


Kevin - you will not destroy a residential circulator impeller in short time -- If you circulate liquid that is - well a little "boney" -- then yes there will be wear and tear - but think about it.

choking a residential wet system circulator on the supply side can may could [ your millage may vary] create a vacuum that might - maybe pull air into the system past the pump seal -- but it depends

lets make this simple -- if your not going to use the pump to circulate anything - unwire it or it should be separately switched anyway - turn it off
Sting
 
Other Heating: BurnHAM=NG-gas

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:14 pm

Kevin - you will not destroy a residential circulator impeller in short time -- If you circulate liquid that is - well a little "boney" -- then yes there will be wear and tear - but think about it.

choking a residential wet system circulator on the supply side can may could [ your millage may vary] create a vacuum that might - maybe pull air into the system past the pump seal -- but it depends

lets make this simple -- if your not going to use the pump to circulate anything - unwire it or it should be separately switched anyway - turn it off


Ha, no way I'm going to argue with you. I said to show me otherwise and you have. In theory, if the pump doesn't move any water it does no work so it is easier. But that is NOT how it works if it creates the other problems. It won't overheat or ruin the impeller but it ain't good. Enough said.

Kevin

I still can't think of a reason to run it against a closed valve anyways! :o
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Can I Run My Circulator....

PostBy: lsayre On: Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:18 pm

As far as I can tell in the old oil boiler and back-up resistance boiler system that I replaced with my coal boiler the circulator ran 24/7, most of the time against closed zone valves. The circulator lasted 11 years and was still going strong when I retired it.

In my current system the circulator only comes on if one or more zone valves are open.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (if I ever get it fixed)