No More Twinkies

Davian wrote:Well, with Greece, they have a national tradition of not paying any taxes at all and bribing gov't officials instead. They also have ridiculous entitlements like retirement on pension at 55. They were massively corrupt well before they entered the EU and they cooked their books to get in. Spain is much the same.

Ireland? Portugal?

Davian wrote:No system works when no one pays into it...The flipside of the coin would be Germany or any Scandinavian country where such a broad social welfare programs work and work quite well...as shown by their far higher standards of living than the US. Shockingly, Germany is one of the most unionized countries in the world too...

Higher standard of living or lower expectations?

Also, how much does Germany spend on policing the world every year?

Coalfire wrote:

Ok so it sounds like the government needs to shrink, and the current administration is going to do this

Well most gov't agencies are stable or shrinking through attrition (1 new hire for every 2 retirements)

And there's this:




On NAFTA, I agree, NAFTA was a deregulation and a destruction of 70 years of gov't protections to the labor force in the name of free trade/free market. That worked out great, didnt it?

Higher standard of living or lower expectations?

Also, how much does Germany spend on policing the world every year?

Higher standard by a big margin. Healthier, better education level, etc etc.


Also, why should we police the world? There's a huge difference between have a military that defends our national security and what we currently have in place (which is excessive)

Why is government involved in the relationship between me and my employer on either side? Maybe those 70 years of intervention NEEDED to be reversed?

And I don't know where you got your graph, but it is highly suspect.

The TSA just as one example has increased greatly over the past few years. Not to mention all the IRS agents provided for under Obamacare.

And even if it's 100% true, it doesn't matter because we are still spending more money today than we were back then. So while there may be fewer total employees, the must be getting paid more because the budget line trends UP not DOWN.

Davian wrote:Higher standard by a big margin. Healthier, better education level, etc etc.

You forgot less free. And that's really the only metric I care about.

jpete wrote:Why is government involved in the relationship between me and my employer on either side? Maybe those 70 years of intervention NEEDED to be reversed?

And I don't know where you got your graph, but it is highly suspect.

The TSA just as one example has increased greatly over the past few years. Not to mention all the IRS agents provided for under Obamacare.

And even if it's 100% true, it doesn't matter because we are still spending more money today than we were back then. So while there may be fewer total employees, the must be getting paid more because the budget line trends UP not DOWN.

Fed wages have been frozen in place for 3+ years now with no raise scheduled until 2014 at the earliest.

As for that relationship...before the gov't got involved, people worked 12+ hrs a day for 6-7 days a week with zero safety concerns at all. If you died, you died. If you got hurt, you lose your job, Crippled? Too bad, etc etc. All those annoying OSHA rules were put in place for a reason.

Being a worker before any gov't protection was a pretty crappy existence.

Then we went too far towards the Left at the expense of productivity and have now swung too far back towards the Right where labor again gets screwed for a better bottom line.

jpete wrote:

Davian wrote:Higher standard by a big margin. Healthier, better education level, etc etc.

You forgot less free. And that's really the only metric I care about.

Free to get bent over?

I mean, Somalia is "free" too...its a Libertarian paradise with zero gov't interference.

Replacing gov't regulation with a 2nd gilded age doesnt strike me as a positive improvement.

Davian wrote:

jpete wrote:Why is government involved in the relationship between me and my employer on either side? Maybe those 70 years of intervention NEEDED to be reversed?

And I don't know where you got your graph, but it is highly suspect.

The TSA just as one example has increased greatly over the past few years. Not to mention all the IRS agents provided for under Obamacare.

And even if it's 100% true, it doesn't matter because we are still spending more money today than we were back then. So while there may be fewer total employees, the must be getting paid more because the budget line trends UP not DOWN.

Fed wages have been frozen in place for 3+ years now with no raise scheduled until 2014 at the earliest.

As for that relationship...before the gov't got involved, people worked 12+ hrs a day for 6-7 days a week with zero safety concerns at all. If you died, you died. If you got hurt, you lose your job, Crippled? Too bad, etc etc. All those annoying OSHA rules were put in place for a reason.

Being a worker before any gov't protection was a pretty crappy existence.

Then we went too far towards the Left at the expense of productivity and have now swung too far back towards the Right where labor again gets screwed for a better bottom line.

I was working 12 hour days 6 days a week when I was in college. I really don't see much difference. If I didn't, I would have lost my job.

So assuming your chart is true, what difference does it make that the number of employees is going down if the money they spend is going up?

Davian wrote:

jpete wrote:

Davian wrote:Higher standard by a big margin. Healthier, better education level, etc etc.

You forgot less free. And that's really the only metric I care about.

Free to get bent over?

I mean, Somalia is "free" too...its a Libertarian paradise with zero gov't interference.

Replacing gov't regulation with a 2nd gilded age doesnt strike me as a positive improvement.

How about replacing it with a "Constitutional Republic"?

It's so CRAZY! It just might work!

jpete wrote:
How about replacing it with a "Constitutional Republic"?

It's so CRAZY! It just might work!

We have that now...it doesn't seem to be working all that well.

jpete wrote:

Davian wrote:

jpete wrote:Why is government involved in the relationship between me and my employer on either side? Maybe those 70 years of intervention NEEDED to be reversed?

And I don't know where you got your graph, but it is highly suspect.

The TSA just as one example has increased greatly over the past few years. Not to mention all the IRS agents provided for under Obamacare.

And even if it's 100% true, it doesn't matter because we are still spending more money today than we were back then. So while there may be fewer total employees, the must be getting paid more because the budget line trends UP not DOWN.

Fed wages have been frozen in place for 3+ years now with no raise scheduled until 2014 at the earliest.

As for that relationship...before the gov't got involved, people worked 12+ hrs a day for 6-7 days a week with zero safety concerns at all. If you died, you died. If you got hurt, you lose your job, Crippled? Too bad, etc etc. All those annoying OSHA rules were put in place for a reason.

Being a worker before any gov't protection was a pretty crappy existence.

Then we went too far towards the Left at the expense of productivity and have now swung too far back towards the Right where labor again gets screwed for a better bottom line.

I was working 12 hour days 6 days a week when I was in college. I really don't see much difference. If I didn't, I would have lost my job.

So assuming your chart is true, what difference does it make that the number of employees is going down if the money they spend is going up?

And you think that was a good thing that you should have to do your entire life just to maintain a subsistence level of life? That's what life was like for most of the labor class prior to worker protections.

And I love when people hand me "Somalia" on a silver platter.

Here's what the CIA "World Factbook" says.

Despite the lack of effective national governance, Somalia has maintained a healthy informal economy, largely based on livestock, remittance/money transfer companies, and telecommunications. Agriculture is the most important sector with livestock normally accounting for about 40% of GDP and more than 50% of export earnings.

GDP - real growth rate:

2.6% (2010 est.)

country comparison to the world: 132

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/so.html

2.6% is pretty good. But I'm sure the good ol' US of A is leaps and bounds better with all that nifty regulation and such.

GDP - real growth rate:

1.8% (2011 est.)

country comparison to the world: 157

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... os/us.html

<insert sad trumpet noise here> Wah-wah....thanks for playing...please try again.

Davian wrote:

jpete wrote:
How about replacing it with a "Constitutional Republic"?

It's so CRAZY! It just might work!

We have that now...it doesn't seem to be working all that well.

We DO?! Where?

Davian wrote:
And you think that was a good thing that you should have to do your entire life just to maintain a subsistence level of life? That's what life was like for most of the labor class prior to worker protections.

That was in the early 90's. I'm not sure how old you think I am.

I'm happy to have worked in a 200+ year old factory where it was 125*F at 3 in the morning in August. I liked being part of the history.

And it taught me to do well in school so I never had to do it again!

Davian wrote:
And you think that was a good thing that you should have to do your entire life just to maintain a subsistence level of life? That's what life was like for most of the labor class prior to worker protections.

Davian , I get the impression that you are against the concept of hard work, sacrifice and risk to improve ones situation should not be part of the American culture.