Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: EarthWindandFire On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:51 am

Ed, I completely agree with you and I understand the efficiencies that can be achieved with long-term contracts. However, the money spent to repair the USS Cole after the attack in Aden was 250 million dollars. That same amount of money would have been enough to reactivate the battleship USS Wisconsin. For example, the explosives that did so much damage to the Cole would have done nothing more than scrape the paint off the hull of a battleship requiring just new paint.

As far as submarines go, not enough creativity and forward thinking goes into a submarine today. Many different designs and thus tactics are never used because of this cookie-cutter approach to designing modern submarines. Just think of the shakeup in naval power and strategy that our enemies would have to develop if we built and deployed a submarine with a streamlined 5" inch deck gun mounted to the center hull of a submarine, possibly pod-mounted and modular by design. Imagine a submarine that could deploy overseas and surface at a moments notice armed with missiles, torpedos and a 5" inch cannon that could provide fire-support, shore bombardment or direct fire on an enemy ship.
Last edited by EarthWindandFire on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Davian On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:06 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:Ed, I completely agree with you and I understand the efficiencies that can be achieved with long-term contracts. However, the money spent to repair the USS Cole after the attack in Aden was 250 million dollars. That same amount of money would have been enough to reactivate the battleship USS Wisconsin. For example, the explosives that did so much damage to the Cole would have done nothing more than scrape the paint off the hull of a battleship requiring just new paint.

As far as submarines go, not enough creativity and forward thinking goes into a submarine today. Many different designs and thus tactics are never used because of this cookie-cutter approach to modern submarines. Just think of the shakeup in naval power and strategy that our enemies would have to develop if we built and deployed a submarine with a streamlined 5" inch deck gun mounted to the forward hull of a submarine. Imagine a submarine that could deploy overseas and surface at a moments notice armed with missiles, torpedos and a 5" inch cannon that could provide fire-support, shore bombardment or direct fire on an enemy ship.


And what's the annual cost of an Iowa class? It also lacks the capabilities needed on a lot of other ways like modern radar systems (the 1980s refit is now 30 years out of date). There were good reasons to get rid of them and the nuclear powered cruisers. Huge crews, limited capability, high cost.

Yes, 16" guns are fun and cool to watch shoot but a cruise missile does the same thing and has a 20x the range.


ALso, they use that cookie-cutter design on subs because it works...it keeps them quiet underwater.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:30 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
jpete wrote:
samhill wrote:Like I always try & get across a POTUS can only do so much & if you have a huge block that refuses to listen to reason for their own personal gain there's not much any POTUS can do.


Can he propose a budget for Congress to vote on?


Jpete...do you understand the term "lame duck"? Look it up and tell us how many of our POTUS had that AND whether they succeeded in a budget that congress approved! :P


So what was his excuse when he wasn't a lame duck?

WTF did he get elected for if not to do his JOB which includes proposing a budget?

Do you refuse to do your job if you think some other party isn't going to agree with you?
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:35 pm

Can he propose a budget for Congress to vote on?[/quote]

Jpete...do you understand the term "lame duck"? Look it up and tell us how many of our POTUS had that AND whether they succeeded in a budget that congress approved! :P[/quote]

So what was his excuse when he wasn't a lame duck?

WTF did he get elected for if not to do his JOB which includes proposing a budget?

Do you refuse to do your job if you think some other party isn't going to agree with you?[/quote]

Dodging...you still did not answer my question! :P
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:50 pm

Who is dodging whom?

I asked a simple yes or no question.

You came up with every excuse as to why he hasn't but that still doesn't answer the question of whether he can or not.

If the answer is yes, then the question is why he hasn't or why he hasn't offered one that makes the required cuts.

If thee answer is no, then whose job is it?
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: samhill On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:46 pm

A POTUS can only propose a budget, it's up to Congress to work out a (here comes that dirty word) compromise that both houses hopefully can agree on. Every year a budget is proposed by Obama & every year instead of working on it Ryan gives his take it or leave it Ryan Plan, that's not the way it was set up Ryan isn't POTUS or even Grand Wizard, they are supposed to work out a "comprised" budget from what the POTUS wants that the POTUS may or may not accept.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:10 pm

jpete wrote:Who is dodging whom?

I asked a simple yes or no question.

You came up with every excuse as to why he hasn't but that still doesn't answer the question of whether he can or not.

If the answer is yes, then the question is why he hasn't or why he hasn't offered one that makes the required cuts.

If thee answer is no, then whose job is it?


Simple: Yes on question 1 and 2. I will give no evidence of my answer...it's above me to give you something to refute! :lol: :P
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:47 pm

Do you refuse to do your job if you think some other party isn't going to agree with you?[/quote]

I do believe you recently stated you have done this in one of your posts! :rofl: :) So, if you can, why can't he! :doh:
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
I do believe you recently stated you have done this in one of your posts! :rofl: :) So, if you can, why can't he! :doh:


I didn't take an oath to do everything my boss told me to do.

Especially if it's going to damage me, the machine, or have an otherwise negative outcome.

But whatever. If you think it's OK for the government to sit on it's collective hands or actively try to injure you despite what the Constitution says then nothing I say will matter.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:10 pm

jpete wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:
I do believe you recently stated you have done this in one of your posts! :rofl: :) So, if you can, why can't he! :doh:


I didn't take an oath to do everything my boss told me to do.

Especially if it's going to damage me, the machine, or have an otherwise negative outcome.

But whatever. If you think it's OK for the government to sit on it's collective hands or actively try to injure you despite what the Constitution says then nothing I say will matter.


Sir...by the sounds of it you don't like to be told to do anything, your way is the right way/only way and if anyone has a modicum of difference from your view they are communist/socialist/marxist or whatever, label you can come up with. :roll: Diplomacy in your venture to "pursuade" others in your ideology would take you a long way! :)
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:58 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
jpete wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:
I do believe you recently stated you have done this in one of your posts! :rofl: :) So, if you can, why can't he! :doh:


I didn't take an oath to do everything my boss told me to do.

Especially if it's going to damage me, the machine, or have an otherwise negative outcome.

But whatever. If you think it's OK for the government to sit on it's collective hands or actively try to injure you despite what the Constitution says then nothing I say will matter.


Sir...by the sounds of it you don't like to be told to do anything, your way is the right way/only way and if anyone has a modicum of difference from your view they are communist/socialist/marxist or whatever, label you can come up with. :roll: Diplomacy in your venture to "pursuade" others in your ideology would take you a long way! :)


I haven't called anyone any names. You talk about what I've said to my boss. I have a degree in machining and nearly 20 years of experience on shop floors. My boss was a mechanical engineer. Which one of us would you reckon knows how to cut titanium or Monel 400 in a safe and efficient manner?

I didn't tell him how to draw pretty pictures with SolidWorks. I told him why it was impossible to produce his pretty pictures in the real world.

Solid Works will tell you (maybe) if you have a problem. In the real would, you destroy a $1500 boring bar or a 60 lb slug of stainless steel comes crashing through the window of your machine at a high rate of speed.

Same thing with what we are talking about here. When you have read and studied and argued as much about economics and monetary policy as I have, then you can tell me I'm wrong.

Go to www.mises.org and visit the book store. I own most of it. Curl up on the couch with Rothbard, Mises, and whomever else you find there and then we can talk.

I'm not trying to "persuade" anybody of anything. I learned a long time ago that that's an impossible mission. A person has to WANT to know and then go find out for themselves. I'm not going to convince you, and you aren't going to convince me.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: mattcoalburner On: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:16 pm

I think we need to look into cutting everything INCLUDING our military. We have a larger military then the next nine countries in the world combined! If we cut it by one third we would still have the largest military budget in the world by far!
We have to cut foreign aid 100%, do people realize we borrow money from china and other counries only to give them free AID" back. we gave China 300 million in aid last year! This is uncalled for!! We need to force american politicians to make AMERICA a proud place to live again, meaning we need to get jobs here, and make people work, and have self worth, pride, and SELF RESPECT! More jobs equals greater tax base! I dont agree that giving the so called job creators tax cuts will hel until we force the job creators to creat those jobs here in the USA again
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Davian On: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:39 am

mattcoalburner wrote:I think we need to look into cutting everything INCLUDING our military. We have a larger military then the next nine countries in the world combined! If we cut it by one third we would still have the largest military budget in the world by far!
We have to cut foreign aid 100%, do people realize we borrow money from china and other counries only to give them free AID" back. we gave China 300 million in aid last year! This is uncalled for!! We need to force american politicians to make AMERICA a proud place to live again, meaning we need to get jobs here, and make people work, and have self worth, pride, and SELF RESPECT! More jobs equals greater tax base! I dont agree that giving the so called job creators tax cuts will hel until we force the job creators to creat those jobs here in the USA again


Demand for goods drives jobs, not tax cuts. IE, a strong middle class with purchasing power creates more jobs and drives our economy.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:30 am

Davian wrote:
Demand for goods drives jobs, not tax cuts. IE, a strong middle class with purchasing power creates more jobs and drives our economy.


Everyone agrees with this. The question is how do you get there. I don't think you can tax your way to prosperity.
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Re: Should defense cuts equally be on the table as we approach t

PostBy: Davian On: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:17 pm

jpete wrote:
Davian wrote:
Demand for goods drives jobs, not tax cuts. IE, a strong middle class with purchasing power creates more jobs and drives our economy.


Everyone agrees with this. The question is how do you get there. I don't think you can tax your way to prosperity.


I dont think more tax cuts will help either though. Taxes are already at historically low levels and there has been zero growth to show for it. Doubling down on them isn't going to help. Going back to the rates of the 1990s isn't going to destroy us either...especially given that those were the lowest rates in decades before Bush cut them further.
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