Ron Paul likes price gouging, and the way he explains it, ..

If it is to late then I would say that we are screwed. What will save us if we have no standard to relate things to? As long as the value of the dollar can be manipulated to buy votes and steal money silently, we are screwed. It is go back or collapse and no one seems to believe that some want a collapse. Someone smarter then I will have to answer the price climb question.

Kevin

Perhaps the biggest mistake is in seeing gold as having value in terms of paper FRN Dollars, when it is Dollars that absolutely must derive their value from gold. The United States Coinage Act of 1792 defines our currency not as paper FRN's, but rather as gold and/or silver and it states that:

"EAGLES – each to be of the value of ten Dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eights of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold."

This translates into 0.516 Troy ounces of pure gold being the definition of (not the equivalence to mind you, but the very definition of, and there is a distinct difference here samhill). That makes a Dollar equal to 0.0516 Troy ounces of pure gold, whereby Troy ounces are the current means by which we measure such things.

Elsewhere the same coinage act defines a Dollar as being: "three hundred and seventy one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver." This translates into 0.7734 Troy ounce of pure silver using the current common Troy ounce scale.

So by US Government decree 0.7734 Troy ounce of pure silver and 0.0516 Troy ounces of pure gold are equivalent and both are a Dollar. A gold/silver weight ratio of 15:1.

There is no need to value anything in terms of todays ever and rapidly devaluing paper FRN's because the adoption of the Coinage Act of 1792 has done all of the work for us. When we revert back to the mixed gold and silver standard as per the original Government plan everything will simply revert back to its value in terms of gold or silver.

A hand made tailored suit that cost one "Double Eagle" ($20) in 1913 will perhaps once again cost $20 in the defined weight of either gold or silver as decreed by the 1792 Coinage Act (though this pricing would be left freely up to the tailor). Only samhill will perhaps feel cheated by this. The rest of us will know that it is the right and proper thing to do, and we will cash in for once and only once our paper FRN's for gold and/or silver coins. It will be no more confusing reverting back to gold and silver than converting from our current total hodgepodge of inches, yards, miles, pounds, gallons, pints, quarts, tons, etc... to their far more logical metric equivalents. The rest of the world has accomplished this, but apparently we are (in terms of how Pravda puts it) really idiots.

As I said long ago there isn't enough gold in the world to cover the money supply. A few would have it all & wouldn't give it up, fantasize all you want it wouldn't & couldn't happen. Unless the world stood still & never grew in any way while still on the gold standard. http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... ual-letter

samhill wrote:As I said long ago there isn't enough gold in the world to cover the money supply. A few would have it all & wouldn't give it up, fantasize all you want it wouldn't & couldn't happen. Unless the world stood still & never grew in any way while still on the gold standard. http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... ual-letter

Perhaps that is why the Founders via their Coinage Act of 1792 defined a single Dollar in terms of silver and ten Dollars in terms of gold. By so doing this created a mixed metals standard of silver and gold. There is plenty of gold and far more silver. The biggest mistake ever made (until the creation of the Federal Reserve and FRN's that is) was in demonetizing silver and attempting to go to a purely gold standard. The US Geological survey says that worldwide there are roughly 10 ounces of silver in the ground for every ounce of gold, so the historical 15:1 weight ratio is perhaps a bit off and in need of review, but that is a small matter in the big picture of things.

Sam, please remember, virtually every ounce of gold in Fort Knox and in storage in vaults in NYC was ripped from the hands of our ancestors during the great Roosevelt gold heist of 1934. It's not the governments gold, it is ours. They made us give it to them in return for mere FRN's in 1934. All we need to do to make things right and whole again is to give them back their FRN's in return for our rightful gold.

Then in 1964 they took away our 90% silver coins and left us with dross. Likewise we give the government back its dross for silver.

One of the foolish (err, GOOD) reasons why silver was demonetized was because some nations used a silver/gold ratio of 16:1 and others (like the USA) used a ratio of 15:1. There was thereby arbitrage going on whereby you could use silver to buy gold in one nation and profit by selling your gold for silver in another (and visa versa), over and over again.

Instead of working to fix this minor loophole, someone decided that silver had to go.

Another reason (probably the REAL reason) why sliver had to be demonetized in 1893 in favor of a pure gold standard was because the wealth of the common man was kept in silver, and the unscrupulous (err, knowing) government and bankster and Wall Street types had their wealth in gold. The idea of a central bank was strong with the banksters back then and their plan to own all of the nations wealth began with breaking the common man and putting him into a series of major depressions that would ultimately win them their sinister goal of issuing FRN's via a Central Bank to the mere plebes. The Federal Reserve was their goal all along. They started a central bank in 1896, but the Supreme Court shot it down, so they had to go through the process of having a majority of the States ratify it in the form of an Amendment instead, and this delayed it until 1913.

JP Morgan once famously said that he had two reasons for everything. A good reason, and a real reason. You and I were told only the good reason. I'm sure Government works by this as a guiding principle. Ditto the banksters and Wall Street.

lsayre wrote: They started a central bank in 1896, but the Supreme Court shot it down, so they had to go through the process of having a majority of the States ratify it in the form of an Amendment instead, and this delayed it until 1913.

And even then, like any good thief, they had to do it under cover of darkness on Christmas Eve after most of Congress had gone home.

Asking what the value of gold has to be to cover the money supply is putting the cart before the horse.

The question is, what would prices fall to until they matched the level of available gold and silver.

And this assumes we allowed the government to set the value of gold and silver which has already proved to be a monumentally bad idea.

Get away from fractional reserve banking and go back to free banking. Allow companies to mint their own coins again. The company that serves it's customers best and makes the most trusted money would be the successful one and the others would fall by the wayside.

Where did your ancestors get all this gold, were they the owners of a gold mine? The Gov. didn't rip off people , they were paid for their gold, many hid it simply because as now they care more for themselves than their country, they felt they were more important. You may not remember when the Hunt Brothers(I think) created a big run on silver & drove the price up. Everyone was running to sell their silver & they were melting silver antiques & works of art but that could never happen today. Just where do you propose we get all this gold & do you have an electron microscope to be able to see your life savings before the wind blows it away? http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gold.htm
That's the ticket Jpete, company money that can be redeemed at the company store, that would work, why didn't someone think about that long ago?

samhill wrote:Where did your ancestors get all this gold, were they the owners of a gold mine? The Gov. didn't rip off people , they were paid for their gold, many hid it simply because as now they care more for themselves than their country, they felt they were more important. You may not remember when the Hunt Brothers(I think) created a big run on silver & drove the price up. Everyone was running to sell their silver & they were melting silver antiques & works of art but that could never happen today. Just where do you propose we get all this gold & do you have an electron microscope to be able to see your life savings before the wind blows it away? http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gold.htm

Sam, did they have electron microscopes before the Federal Reserve came into existence? Was their gold (aside from mined or panned sources) in the form of dust? A 0.516 Troy ounce gold coin is not dust. Neither is a 0.774 Troy ounce silver coin. These would be (and in fact were) pretty normal size coins. I believe a Troy ounce is within the ballpark of 12 of them weighing a pound, whereas an Avoirdupois ounce requires 16 to be the same pound, so these coins had some bulk!

As to where they got it, they worked for it and earned it. You probably will never believe this samhill, but back then when money was silver and gold it was amazingly sort of just like today, whereby you make something or you work for someone who makes somethings, or you provide a service, or you teach, perform, etc... and you get paid for your wealth creating accomplishments.

As to where the government got it, amazingly they actually didn't. They only took anyones mined gold or silver and minted it into coins (provided that the owner desired that end for it). They did not own it, they merely gave it uniformity and consistency and coined it into currency (for a very small and token seigniorage fee of some of the metal). Then they gave it right back to the miners (owners), who eventually bought things or banked them, etc..., thereby introducing them into circulation. The government back then was not into creating wealth from thin air, and it also was not in the mining business. Things were much more honest back then. Only those who worked for money actually ended up with money.

samhill wrote:Where did your ancestors get all this gold, were they the owners of a gold mine? The Gov. didn't rip off people , they were paid for their gold, many hid it simply because as now they care more for themselves than their country, they felt they were more important. You may not remember when the Hunt Brothers(I think) created a big run on silver & drove the price up. Everyone was running to sell their silver & they were melting silver antiques & works of art but that could never happen today. Just where do you propose we get all this gold & do you have an electron microscope to be able to see your life savings before the wind blows it away? http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-gold.htm
That's the ticket Jpete, company money that can be redeemed at the company store, that would work, why didn't someone think about that long ago?

How do you ignore several millennia of human history and somehow get away with calling me arrogant?

I just don't get it. Even the word "dollar" comes from the word "Thaler" which was a silver coin that expanded trade in Europe and Asia for almost a thousand years.

When you find me a paper currency that lasts that long, then you can be right, and I'll be wrong.

y were paid for their gold, many hid it simply because as now they care more for themselves than their country, they felt they were more important.

And that right there tells you that Sam is a socialist. Wealth belongs to the gov. and only greedy people try to keep it. They must be punished. Funny, my family still has some of that gold. Explains why I am a greedy capitalist.

Company store??? If I make gold coins and they are redeemable by their weight and value, it doesn't matter where you spend them. The company store was you HAVING to buy your earned wages at the company food store, boot store, clothes store, etc. Not even close to the same.

Kevin

Where did I call you arrogant? Let me rephrase that, where did I recently call you arrogant? How old is paper & younger yet paper that could be used as money? You do I'm sure know we use cloth & it's pretty durable, light weight, folds & doesn't make noise plus cheaply replaced when too badly worn. If a new invention comes along that is greatly superior to what it replaces even if it were hundreds of years old it sure wouldn't have a history that goes back before it was invented.

KLook wrote:

y were paid for their gold, many hid it simply because as now they care more for themselves than their country, they felt they were more important.

And that right there tells you that Sam is a socialist. Wealth belongs to the gov. and only greedy people try to keep it. They must be punished. Funny, my family still has some of that gold. Explains why I am a greedy capitalist.

Company store??? If I make gold coins and they are redeemable by their weight and value, it doesn't matter where you spend them. The company store was you HAVING to buy your earned wages at the company food store, boot store, clothes store, etc. Not even close to the same.

Kevin

I have to agree KLook . That is exactly the thought process that scares the heck out of me. I guess I am a greedy capitalist as well. If you do something for yourself you are no good and need to be reprimanded and taxed more.

So then the two of you, Klook & Flyer think that it's OK to break a law if doing so betters oneself. You can't go by what is now known but by what the law was what in ## or so & the then reasoning behind it. Hey, at least there was a small void in the name calling, somehow I knew it was coming, some need it.

Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution gave Congress the authority to "coin money". Somewhere along the line this clause was grossly misconstrued (I'm sure purely by accident, and in total innocence) into Congress being given the authority to "make money". Then further down the line Congress passed the job of "making money" off to the Federal Reserve.

Coining someone else's metal for them (for a small agreed upon in advance seigniorage fee) is one thing, but making money by and for yourself is clearly another.

Jpete brought up the "new" idea of a private company making their own coins, I just hinted that it has been done, I have quite a few different Company coins, I would guess that the same could also be said of transportation tokens except that they were bought for use on that transit system alone.
Now that the price of gold has gone up so high you want to get a gold coin of whatever face value at no more cost of old worthless paper or labor on your part & then also break the law by selling it for weight. I guess that could be called free enterprise if the Gov. were to be less smart than you. I guess free market is anything that can be gotten away with against the law or not, just the same as DaVita Dialysis was doing to the Gov..