Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:02 pm

Yeah sorry about that... :oops: I shouldn't get in front of the puter after a few vodkas :lol: Any who, it's a matter of perspective.. In my mind they both do the same thing, I've based that on using both and applying the science that dictates the results.. A baro just does it better since it automatically maintains negative pressure at it's set limit.. Thats my perspective and you have yours, thats fine... :)

Peace Brother... 8-)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: scalabro On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:50 pm

Although I have not tried it on my MKII, I believe having both is really the best setup.

Part of me wishes that I had tried this before I decided on the base burner, not that it would be superior, just that I like to tinker.

The MPD will vary the time the hot gasses are in the stove for maximum transfer to the room, and the Baro will maintain the optimum draft under a wide variance of atmospheric conditions.

Has anyone tried this on a hand fired and what was the outcome?
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired forced hot air

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:09 pm

I'm pretty sure Lightning was referring to me So here is all I am going to say on it. Use what suits you. But, do not mistake your opinion or your assumptions on reality. It was -9 here this morning. It is 1 degree here now. I heat a 2400 square foot home, built in 1970 with no upgrades, on 65-70 pounds of coal a day. My thermostat says 83 degrees right now. My electric bill last month was $56. This month is going to be even cheaper. I type this in a pair of gym shorts in the upstairs of my home. The stove is in the basement. I'll put another 5 gallon bucket of coal in my stove around 9 pm tonight. When your stove with the baro thingy does that as efficiently as mine is dong it, I'll listen. Make no mistake though, after your post stating your position, I'll never coin you as a genius, sarcastically or not.

I wasn't being a smart guy on my first post. But, the genius term you coined me with might suit me in the home heating department because, a MPD and controlled air intake in the form of a stove draft, works real well in my case. Much better than a baro thing. :^)


And when we get some rare and odd atmospheric condition that causes your chimney to loose draft and because you have manually choked your stove pipe down to the size of a 2 inch PVC pipe, you will be the first to tell us about it? IF you survive that is....
Even though wood and coal are different, wood is relevant here because it has a higher stack temp which should induce better draft. I cannot tell you how many people I have known that had their house get all stinky with wood smoke because conditions changed and they were not around to change the mpd or if they were, it is to late when you smell it. Strong stuff. Move that thought over to coal with a lower stack temp and no smoke but fumes that will kill you and tell me why you want to block a flue pipe that is engineered to guarantee your survival? I have a son and family living in my house in Maine, and there is NO mpd in the flue pipe. You are taking chances trying to squeeze the Nth degree of heat out of the already cheapest fuel going. Yes you can, but you take your chances. Why not just put up a 3 inch metal chimney to save money? Maybe some of the terra cotta drainage tiles that are 4 inches in diameter? Cast iron sounds perfect, building inspector will think it is a stink pipe.
I understand not wanting a baro for wood, even though my brother and others are using them in carefully setup systems, and I would if I ever (never) burned wood again. But to have a device that maintains the perfect draft in most situations and not use it is foolish. And then there are those manufactures that don't want anything used. We call them lawyered up, but there is a reason for that probably.
I know this little diatribe wont change any minds, but that is not the point. It is coming from a guy that would use a baro for wood!
Like FFred, I trust my experience and working knowledge just like you guys choking the piss out of a correct size pipe with a butterfly valve!!

May the discussion continue........

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

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Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:11 pm

and the Baro will maintain the optimum draft under a wide variance of atmospheric conditions.


You don't think the Baro maintaining a lower, correct draft is optimizing the time the hot gasses spend in the stove? What does the magic mpd do?

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: scalabro On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:19 pm

KLook wrote:
and the Baro will maintain the optimum draft under a wide variance of atmospheric conditions.


You don't think the Baro maintaining a lower, correct draft is optimizing the time the hot gasses spend in the stove? What does the magic mpd do?

Kevin


In my mind the closed mpd increases the TIME the gasses are in the stove slowing the gasses down even more than just the "correct draft"

It seems to me that the mpd kind of accomplishes the same thing, although to a far lesser degree, as a base heated stove.

So it would seem to me, for a box stove, it would be stove-mpd-baro-chimney.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired forced hot air

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: rberq On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:56 pm

Gekko wrote:... I believe having both is really the best setup ... Has anyone tried this on a hand fired and what was the outcome?

Yes, I tried having both. The MPD just f*cked things up, so I stopped using it. The baro works day and night without any attention from me, and keeps a steady draft. Your results may vary.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:14 pm

Gekko wrote:In my mind the closed mpd increases the TIME the gasses are in the stove slowing the gasses down even more than just the "correct draft"

This is the foundation of the entire Baro vs MPD war...
It doesn't matter which device is used..

Draft = Time gases are spent in Stove...
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: titleist1 On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:15 pm

Gekko wrote:Has anyone tried this on a hand fired and what was the outcome?


Somebody experimented this winter....i think it was kingcoal...maybe....and documented the results for his specific installation.....

nobody got it right yet......It's Mrs. Howell......she had the $$$$$ Ya gotta think outside the box!! :wacko:
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: freetown fred On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:16 pm

Ahhhh, the pitfalls of using two thingy's that obviously do the same thing if you know how to use one or the other properly & your geographic/ environmental setting is appropriate for one or the other:)
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: scalabro On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:33 pm

Lightning wrote:
Gekko wrote:In my mind the closed mpd increases the TIME the gasses are in the stove slowing the gasses down even more than just the "correct draft"

This is the foundation of the entire Baro vs MPD war...
It doesn't matter which device is used..

Draft = Time gases are spent in Stove...


I respectfully disagree.

Because when the mpd is closed, the exh opening area is far smaller, so even at an equal draft the gasses will remain in the stove longer.

The baro just is a simple bypass, the mpd acts to physically restrict exh flow.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired forced hot air

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: freetown fred On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:37 pm

Good Lord--equal--sneaqual. If something works well without complicating the hell out of it--all is good & all is safe
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: Lightning On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:38 pm

Gekko wrote:I respectfully disagree.

Yes sir, I respectfully understand...
and so, the saga continues.... :|
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1537G
Coal Size/Type: Nut Size / White Ash

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:45 pm

I respectfully disagree right back.
What do you think happens when you close the mpd????? The chimney has the same volume of air rising and the room or house has the same pressure pushing out for those that see it that way. All that is happening is the VELOCITY of air increases at the mpd to satisfy the pressure differential. The baro sucks air AROUND the stove to satisfy the pressure differential! But the baro will adjust to changes like falling stack temps because of the change in how much air is coming through the stove! Therefore, it is superior.
And Fred, just because you have been running yours for X amount of time proves nothing. The people living beneath Pompeii thought they were good to go also.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: scalabro On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:54 pm

Klook,

I respectfully think you do not understand my point.

I don't mean to take sides.

I run a baro on my MKII.

My point is that it seems to me using both could be even better than using only one of either.

No matter, I won't be running a box stove after this Friday!

Have fun....I'm out.
scalabro
 
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14 in the works.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Anthracite
Other Heating: Oil fired forced hot air

Re: Manual pipe dampers .. how, why, when

PostBy: KLook On: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:11 pm

No need to take offense. Your view is that it is ok to block a vent with potentially lethal gasses with 2 devices. One is approved as it will close down mostly and allow for the maximum venting possible under current conditions, and the other is a crude valve that mechanically shuts of the flow no matter what the conditions in the flue are. Is my description wrong? Would it be better to just put up a 3 inch chimney? Why do manufacturers bother to have standards and such things? Even way back before the EPA, OSHA, etc. even existed they had 8 in. and 6 in. flues on their stoves. And they didn't have CO detectors so they better get it right! It seems logical to me that when a company puts out a stove with an 8 in. output size, they may have had to test it a little bit in today's litigious world. Some think they overdo it and yes, they may. But who wants to be responsible for deaths?

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Visit Hitzer Stoves