What change will this looming reality bring to America?

Forum rules
As the title "Thoughtful and Intelligent Debates" implies we want quality discussion in this forum. If you're going to post a new topic or reply to one here please make sure it fits the following guidelines.

  • Clear and descriptive title for your topic.
  • You don't need to write a book but please have a reasonable amount of material to support or dispute what you are discussing.
  • Outside references to material to support or dispute your argument can be used but they should not wholly make up your argument. If for example you reference a news article please explain exactly what you are referencing and why.
  • Stay on topic, while topics will wander in the general forums we want to keep them strictly on topic in this forum. Flaming will not be tolerated at all.

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:21 am

Northern Maine wrote:If a terrorist is "stemmed" at the border and not allowed to enter the country...is it worth the one worker's financial support from the private sector?

It's easy to construct a scenario to justify anything.

Should we have to pay for our government to supply guns to drug dealers?

Your job may or may not be beneficial or cost effective but it does not represent government workers as a whole.

When Pope John XX111 was asked how many people worked in the Vatican, he answered, "about half of them"
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: KLook On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:25 am

our children .... so sick of hearing this........... worked since i was 16 paying in all the time paid for health care since 18

let "our children" worry about the problems hell they don't even want to work for a living.... they just want a check every week........ what I'm a parasite because i want what is coming to me in retirement ........ :mad:


And how about when "our children" have to say, nope, no retirement. You think because someone promised you a burger today that they are going to pay for in the future makes you special? Remember your liberal slogan, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:27 am

NoSmoke wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:So...ALL government workers are parasites?


In a word...YES! The problem is, the word parasite has a negative aspect to it that is not always accurate.

Yes all government workers are parasites, because a parasite gets its sustenance from another host by definition.

A great example of this is an engine. It has several parasitic loads placed upon it, the primary being the water pump. In order for the engine to work, it must have a water pump to push water through the block and radiator in order to cool it. It gets its power from the engine, but the engine would not run long if it was allowed to get too hot and seize up. The same thing applies with governor controls and alternators...they are needed to keep the engine running, or get it running. But then again, air conditioners, and power steering pumps are not really needed; they are their for the convenience of the operator...to keep the occupant of the car comfortable, and the car easier to control.

It is the exact same way with a governmental employee...they are parasitic loads on society, but that does not mean they are unneeded. There are things I just cannot do for economically for myself, and that is where government comes into play. For instance, it is uneconomical for me, a single commuter, to have a pickup and plow the snow the 87 miles one way from my house to my job so that I can be safe on the roads; it is much more economical for me to have the Maine Dept of Transportation do so for me and all my neighbors. It is economy of scale kind of thing, not a feasibility kind of thing.

So in that example the MDOT Plow Operator is a parasite still...because he feeds off Maine Taxpayers, but it is easy to see that he (or a contracted company) does the work for society to increase the efficiency of scale. The problem is, today there are many more parasitic loads on society then are what is really needed. I believe...a strong conservative...is that many of things a liberal and social society feels are NEEDS are actually wants. I have a 6 year old daughter who has learned to form all her Christmas Present Wish Lists as NEEDS. She is acting like a spoiled child, and compared to much of the world who gets their subsistence on less than $2 per day, we American's are spoiled and we are increasingly calling wants...needs.

An example is the giving of cell phones to welfare recipients calling it a NEED. I am a welder/farmer and while I commute 87 miles one way to work and have all kinds of reasons to justify having a cell phone, I do NOT have one and get by just fine. (big shock I know). As Americans' we need to prioritize in a big way!

As for me; I am a parasite in two ways. The first is that I build US Navy Ships which makes me a parasite on society because all my income is derived from federal taxpayers, just as yours comes from Maine Taxpayers. The real question is: are the services we provide as parasites to society worthwhile or not? That is the true question. As for the other aspect of being a parasite; it is because I am a Christian and almost daily...despite knowing otherwise...I do what I want and not do what God commands me to do, and for that I am a huge parasite, just saved by God's Mercy and Grace. In my opinion, that makes me the biggest parasite of all...clinging to God for rescue.


Your explanation here has much merit! :) In fact, so much so, that I now see that we are all parasites!
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648


Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:30 am

franco b wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:If a terrorist is "stemmed" at the border and not allowed to enter the country...is it worth the one worker's financial support from the private sector?

It's easy to construct a scenario to justify anything.

Should we have to pay for our government to supply guns to drug dealers?

Your job may or may not be beneficial or cost effective but it does not represent government workers as a whole.

When Pope John XX111 was asked how many people worked in the Vatican, he answered, "about half of them"


SO...your cure is to cut out all govt run programs? Lets do that! It may solve our fiscal problem, but it opens up a whole new world of problems as well.
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:35 am

Was our nation founded upon the promise of any level of (let alone endless and cradle to grave in scope) government mandated socialized programs, or did the Supreme Court at some juncture discover the hidden "welfare clause" that the Founders and several generations of Americans didn't know was right there in our Constitution all along?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: RAYJAY On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:06 pm

KLook wrote:
our children .... so sick of hearing this........... worked since i was 16 paying in all the time paid for health care since 18

let "our children" worry about the problems hell they don't even want to work for a living.... they just want a check every week........ what I'm a parasite because i want what is coming to me in retirement ........ :mad:


And how about when "our children" have to say, nope, no retirement. You think because someone promised you a burger today that they are going to pay for in the future makes you special? Remember your liberal slogan, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Kevin



sounds like it going to be our children's problem then.......its not a promise when your paying for a service your whole life ...... not a liberal or a tea party nut job here...... just believe that the system should be fair not one sided either way, its just like the tea party does not want a lot of laws... but abortion rights they want a law for that ..... let it up to the people that are involved and only those people.. not our problem there up to having sex figure it out them selfs and on the liberal side nobody should get a check for doing nothing if they get a welfare check there is work out there for them to do they should put in 40 hours a week of volunteer work or even community service.
RAYJAY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VAN WERT - 600 VA HOT WATER
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN- MAGUM STOKER
Coal Size/Type: BUCKWHEAT ON BOTH
Other Heating: NG BOILER

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: KLook On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:24 pm

I agree rayjay. But the relevance of my statement stands. i have paid also, as most do. I am not expecting a rosy gov. funded retirement and anyone that promises it would be suspect in my book. It was never meant as that anyways.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman (Back In Maine)
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: RAYJAY On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:48 pm

KLook wrote:I agree rayjay. But the relevance of my statement stands. i have paid also, as most do. I am not expecting a rosy gov. funded retirement and anyone that promises it would be suspect in my book. It was never meant as that anyways.

Kevin


not looking for rosy gov. fund just looking for what is due to me at retirement..... our children need to know what work is .......
our welfare system should work like this......

Welfare is reserved only for the elderly, infirm, and those who need a
temporary helping hand and the welfare system must also:

Instill the concept of honest work for honest pay
Instill the concept that everyone who can work must work and be forced
to work if necessary
Instill the concept that there is no free lunch and that being productive
citizens in a free society is the only honorable path to take
RAYJAY
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: VAN WERT - 600 VA HOT WATER
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: HARMAN- MAGUM STOKER
Coal Size/Type: BUCKWHEAT ON BOTH
Other Heating: NG BOILER

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:39 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
franco b wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:If a terrorist is "stemmed" at the border and not allowed to enter the country...is it worth the one worker's financial support from the private sector?

It's easy to construct a scenario to justify anything.

Should we have to pay for our government to supply guns to drug dealers?

Your job may or may not be beneficial or cost effective but it does not represent government workers as a whole.

When Pope John XX111 was asked how many people worked in the Vatican, he answered, "about half of them"


SO...your cure is to cut out all govt run programs? Lets do that! It may solve our fiscal problem, but it opens up a whole new world of problems as well.

No, not all of them, just the ones that do harm to our people like education and energy, plus a lot more.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:20 pm

Should we have to pay for our government to supply guns to drug dealers?

Your job may or may not be beneficial or cost effective but it does not represent government workers as a whole.

When Pope John XX111 was asked how many people worked in the Vatican, he answered, "about half of them"[/quote]

SO...your cure is to cut out all govt run programs? Lets do that! It may solve our fiscal problem, but it opens up a whole new world of problems as well.[/quote]
No, not all of them, just the ones that do harm to our people like education and energy, plus a lot more.[/quote]

Please tell us specifically what programs harm our people and how?
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:23 pm

lsayre wrote:Was our nation founded upon the promise of any level of (let alone endless and cradle to grave in scope) government mandated socialized programs, or did the Supreme Court at some juncture discover the hidden "welfare clause" that the Founders and several generations of Americans didn't know was right there in our Constitution all along?


Sir... welfare is relative to the situation at hand...have you ever collected unemployment...if S.S. is still around will you collect it...if all else fails in your health care...will you accept it from the govt. for yourself or loved ones? Evaluate these questions and give an honest straight forward answer!
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Northern Maine wrote:Please tell us specifically what programs harm our people and how?


That would be any government program that takes money out of my paycheck without a grant of my expressed permission beforehand.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:28 pm

lsayre wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:Please tell us specifically what programs harm our people and how?


That would be any government program that takes money out of my paycheck without a grant of my expressed permission beforehand.


Find a time machine! Find a time when that has occurred in U.S. history after the constitution!
Northern Maine
 
Stove/Furnace Make: CENTRAL Boiler CL-5648
Stove/Furnace Model: CL-5648

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:30 pm

Northern Maine wrote:Sir... welfare is relative to the situation at hand...have you ever collected unemployment...if S.S. is still around will you collect it...if all else fails in your health care...will you accept it from the govt. for yourself or loved ones? Evaluate these questions and give an honest straight forward answer!


Even the likes of Ron Paul has gone on record as stating that he will take Social Security, seeing that he has paid into it all his life. But I believe that in the long run that only exacerbates the situation. We should be permitted to opt out and choose instead private alternatives to such socialized programs as welfare and SS, and if given such an option I would opt out of most all government programs. Would you?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)

Re: What change will this looming reality bring to America?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:36 pm

Northern Maine wrote:Find a time machine! Find a time when that has occurred in U.S. history after the constitution!


Actually as good as the Constitution once was, and as often as I challenge others to uphold it, I personally don't believe that a small room full of men over 200 years ago had any authority (moral, ethical, or otherwise) to sign into citizenship and obligation for all of posterity any who came after them and who merely happened to be born within certain borders. I side with Lysander Spooner as an advocate of anarcho-capitalism (as I have stated in previous posts). I find Civil War era Abolitionist and self educated lawyer Lysander Spooner's published work titled "No Treason. The Constitution of No Authority" to be spot on, along with most of his other works.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (It has been fixed!)