Harman 1 first fire

Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Storm On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11 pm

I got it installed and put a fire to it. I am new to this forum, but not to coal. First time with the Harman. Don't have the baro yet. Need one, I can here the wind thru the glass vents. Stove temp 350 degrees, chimney pipe from stove at 2 feet 200 degrees. Think loosing stove heat? Stay up all night to see how it operates. Filled firebox to 2 inches from top of fire bricks. From 10pm to 7am held the temperature of 325 to 375 degrees. Started to loose heat at 10 am. Opened ash draw for 5 minutes to livery up the coals, closed ash door, added more nut coal 2 inches, opened ash door wait 5 minutes, then closed ash door. Back to 350 degrees in 20 minutes . Thanx for your help on other post that I made earlier. George :roll:
Storm
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark 1& 111
Baseburners & Antiques: Coal Kitchen heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut & stove
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Cast. Vig. '79 w/coal

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:17 pm

You have the right approach in taking the time to study and learn the behavior of your stove.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:59 pm

welcome to the forum....sounds like you are off to a great start :clap:

what is the temp in the house with the stove running at those temps?

from the temps listed it doesn't seem like you are losing too much heat up the flue.

make use of that available 2"....fill it to the top of the bricks!!
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Visit Hitzer Stoves

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:45 pm

Agreed. If you have 2" left of bricks, you are not using it to the fullest extent.

200* stack temp seems a little high to me. I can put my hand on my stove pipe and keep it there for a while. I measured it one and was barely at 100*.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Storm On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:50 pm

The stove is located in a living space 20x30 with 9ft. ceilling. Stove is at one courner. That courner is aprox. center of home. Other rooms on the first floor are distall of the stoves's location. Today it's 28 degrees with a 20 mph wind. The large room is 73 degrees at a stove's temp 350 degrees with the fan off. The furthest room is 69 degrees. Upstairs via stair landing is a floor vent 16 x 30 from the downstairs 25 ft. From the stove. Upstairs 2 bedrooms are. 70 degrees. I have not used the stove at it peak heating output yet. Still smelling stove oil from the factory. Coal unlike wood can vary the temperature low. Wood make creasoke. The home built in 1885 red brick 1450 sq ft. So far I am please withe this little stove. Agree that the stack is high in temps. I think the wind over the chimney is sucking excess heat out of the stove. Will pick up a Johnson Controls RC barometric damper. George :roll:
Storm
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark 1& 111
Baseburners & Antiques: Coal Kitchen heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut & stove
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Cast. Vig. '79 w/coal

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Chuck_Steak On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:06 pm

Storm wrote:I got it installed and put a fire to it. Don't have the baro yet. Need one,

If you don't have a manometer hooked up to it, how do you know you "need" one?

Stove temp 350 degrees, chimney pipe from stove at 2 feet 200 degrees. Think loosing stove heat?

You measuring with an infrared, or magnetic?
Doesn't sound outrageous where you don't have a baro hooked up to help cool it off.
Just my opinion.

Dan
Chuck_Steak
 
Coal Size/Type: mostly nut, sometimes stove, Santa brand
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark III

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Storm On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:22 pm

Magnetic temps two, one on left side of stove 3 inches from top. Seconded 2 ft. from outlet. Also really don't want to cool of chimney, one third is exposed to weather. The baro would be for the wind. :yearight: :beer:
Storm
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark 1& 111
Baseburners & Antiques: Coal Kitchen heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut & stove
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Cast. Vig. '79 w/coal

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:52 pm

Chuck_Steak wrote:
Storm wrote:I got it installed and put a fire to it. Don't have the baro yet. Need one,

If you don't have a manometer hooked up to it, how do you know you "need" one?

He needs one. With that stove, when you hear the wind whistling through the vents around the glass, it means the draft is way too high and is sucking in LOTS of above-the-fire air. I had exactly the same thing with my Harman Mk 1, and it was hard even to get the stove temperature above 350 because so much air and heat was going up the chimney. Wind gusts made it worse, but even with no wind it was a problem.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300
Coal Size/Type: Nut -- Kimmel/Blaschak/Reading
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: jpete On: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:36 pm

My Mk I in my old house with a "good" chimney(totally inside the house until the roof) would pull like a freight train. No room to install a baro but the MPD helped quite a bit.

In this house with a "cold" chimney(totally exterior) I struggle to get .02" WC but with a due south exposure facing the water, I can get that baro damper flapping pretty good. Those are the days I love having it installed. :)

In the early and late season, I have to cover it with foil to ensure ALL the air goes through the stove though.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Chuck_Steak On: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:13 pm

rberq wrote:
Chuck_Steak wrote:If you don't have a manometer hooked up to it, how do you know you "need" one?

He needs one. With that stove, when you hear the wind whistling through the vents around the glass, it means the draft is way too high and is sucking in LOTS of above-the-fire air. I had exactly the same thing with my Harman Mk 1, and it was hard even to get the stove temperature above 350 because so much air and heat was going up the chimney. Wind gusts made it worse, but even with no wind it was a problem.


Well, I think it's good that the OP gets a few comments.
I'm sticking with "it's good to get a mano reading", to know what you really have.

All I can say is, at this very minute, my stove (Mark III) is pulling .05 on the mano,
which I zeroed in just a few weeks ago, like I always do before
I light it for the winter.
It's running 348, my stove pipe is running 143. taken with a laser thermo.
And I can hear air going by the glass vents...
But I would expect to.
I can't tell what the actual draft is, by listening to that air.

I have NO problem running my stove at 600, which you need to
do, here, when it's really cold. And I am certain I am not using
tons more coal than I should be...

I am NOT anti baro.
I am pro knowing what you have.

I HAVE ONE on my stove.
However, after messing with:
no damper
manual damper
baro damper
My particular arrangement works best with the manual..
Absolutely no question.
FOR ME.
But it took experimenting with all three variables
to make the decision.
For you, it's different.
For him, it may be different than both of us.

Plus, I see no negative in getting the mano.
If you find you need draft control,
it will help you dial it in properly,
as opposed to guessing on the little slide scale.

Dan
Chuck_Steak
 
Coal Size/Type: mostly nut, sometimes stove, Santa brand
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark III

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Cap On: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:38 pm

Hey Storm, how many turns is your damper cranked out with those numbers you posted earlier?
Cap
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Harman SF 250, domestic hot water loop, heat accumulator

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: Storm On: Sat Dec 08, 2012 9:55 am

Hey Cap, one complete turn out. :|
Storm
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark 1& 111
Baseburners & Antiques: Coal Kitchen heater
Coal Size/Type: Nut & stove
Stove/Furnace Make: Vermont Cast. Vig. '79 w/coal

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: coalcracker On: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:41 am

Storm wrote:The stove is located in a living space 20x30 with 9ft. ceilling. Stove is at one courner. That courner is aprox. center of home. Other rooms on the first floor are distall of the stoves's location. Today it's 28 degrees with a 20 mph wind. The large room is 73 degrees at a stove's temp 350 degrees with the fan off. The furthest room is 69 degrees. Upstairs via stair landing is a floor vent 16 x 30 from the downstairs 25 ft. From the stove. Upstairs 2 bedrooms are. 70 degrees. I have not used the stove at it peak heating output yet. Still smelling stove oil from the factory. Coal unlike wood can vary the temperature low. Wood make creasoke. The home built in 1885 red brick 1450 sq ft. So far I am please withe this little stove. Agree that the stack is high in temps. I think the wind over the chimney is sucking excess heat out of the stove. Will pick up a Johnson Controls RC barometric damper. George :roll:


old thread but worth reviving

you don't need a manual of baro flue pipe damper with a Harman I coal stove, it's internally baffled and will control the fire right down to a simmer at 3/8 turn open on the draft control. If you look inside the stove, in the top inside, there is only a 2" opening across the upper roof, for exhaust smoke to exit. It's like having a manual flue pipe damper closed half way at all times. The smoke goes up, across the top, then DOWN, then out the back horizontally, they up the chimney. Very similar to an old baseheater, etc. system, that's why Harmans cost more and are so EFFICIENT. The draft air control on THAT particular stove is the MOST PRECISE I've seen in 45 years. It's so precise it reminds me of the idle mixture screw on a carburetor. The sweet spot for a Harman I is 3/8 open for minimum low heat, and 3/4 turn open for maximum heat. You don't need all the draft control opening there is in the knob. It turns open 6.5 turns but in 10 years, I've never had mine open more than 3/4 turn on the COLDEST days, when it was 30 below zero outside. At 3/4 turn it is really cranking. If you are burning it in the 1 turn open range, perhaps you are burning it too hot. A good setting is 1/2 turn open and just leave it there, it won't go out ever, if you have a good chimney. 1 bucket of coal a day, is not a lot, that's only 40 lbs. per day, or $4 a day at current NEPA prices of $200/ton. That's only $120 a month and that's saving a ton of money compared to oil, gas, propane, heat pump. The nice thing about the coal stove is, it's cheaper and real heat. Gas and propane heat are heat in name only, the floors in the house will still be cold.

On the subject of draft and dampers, I took the time to actually MEASURE the draft opening on my Harman I where it spends most of its time at 1/2 turn open. The opening is .025" measured with a feeler gauge, all around the knob. The knob is about 3.75" wide. That equates to an air intake area of only .3 square inches, or 3/10 of a square inch- less draft intake area than the size of a POSTAGE STAMP. That's why the Harman I gets such great COAL MILEAGE, and many using that stove can heat all winter with only 2 tons. I've already done it on one ton in a mild winter in NEPA.

There is a tendency to OVER-DRAFT a coal stove to try to get a blast of heat from it like a wood stove. Resist the temptation to fire it like a wood stove. Changes in coal stove draft must be done in increments then wait until the stove gets up to that higher burning rate, it takes some time. A newbie will tend to slam the draft wide open, it then over-fires, then slam the draft closed, then it goes out.

Make small changes in draft and see how it burns. With any knob-type draft, start at 1/2 turn open, from the complete closed position. Go from there.

You will be hard pressed to find a better free standing stove than a modern Harman. The door handles, hinges, latches, stove wall, legs, fan, etc. are all high quality and a lot better than most competing designs. To be quite honest I have never seen a better stove and have owned and fired many.

The new Harmans are also better than the best tall standing vintage stoves such as the baseheaters. The downside of any stove with a huge firepot is, they eat a lot of coal. People that say they can put 4 bags of coal in their stove, 40 lbs. each, are spending more on coal heat than it would cost to heat with gas baseboard. The whole idea should be, use as little coal as possible, to get maximum heat, and burn the longest time.

When in doubt, buy a smaller stove, because small stoves burn less coal by design. The Harman I is a perfect place to start, and most likely will be the only stove you'll ever need. Ignore the claims of "bad service" with Harman, that is laughable, because with a Harman, you won't ever need any service. Mine hasn't needed so much as a nut or bolt in 12 years. All I've ever done was feed it coal, rake it down, and take out the ashes. Once a year I clean the pipe in the back, before starting it. I burn junk mail and old bills, bank statements, etc. in it throughout the year, so paper ashes builds up there. (a coal stove can act as a replacement for a paper shredder)

There's a tendency for neophytes and newbies who live outside the NEPA coal region, to complicate and mystify the idea of burning coal for heat. There's nothing mysterious about it, and it's not rocket science. Just use trial/error and common sense, you'll be ok. If you have trouble controlling a stove, usually its leaking air from somewhere, and getting excess draft.

There's nothing wrong with air whistling into the glass vents in the door, that's what it's supposed to do. If you have a baro damper, it will be whistling into the flue pipe bypass instead. The place to add air is above the fire, to combust any methane gas and get a secondary burn. In high draft chimney conditions, just turn the main draft knob tighter, that's all. Set at 3/8 turn open it won't matter what the chimney draft is doing, the stove won't run away and overfire, because it can't, the draft is set too low and tight to overfire it.
coalcracker
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Standard sealed hot water boiler, hand fed
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark I Magnafire
Baseburners & Antiques: Lehigh Oak 18, Washington potbelly, Sears Roebuck parlor cabinet, PIttston 6 lid cook stove, vintage combo gas/coal cook stove 4 lid
Coal Size/Type: nut
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
Stove/Furnace Model: Mark I Magnafire

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: titleist1 On: Sat Dec 07, 2013 8:59 am

oh my....where to start..... :roll:

never mind i got too much to do today and gotta get started.....cant wait to read this later tonight though! :lol:
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Harman 1 first fire

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:43 pm

coalcracker wrote: The sweet spot for a Harman I is 3/8 open for minimum low heat, and 3/4 turn open for maximum heat. You don't need all the draft control opening there is in the knob. It turns open 6.5 turns but in 10 years, I've never had mine open more than 3/4 turn on the COLDEST days, when it was 30 below zero outside. At 3/4 turn it is really cranking. If you are burning it in the 1 turn open range, perhaps you are burning it too hot. A good setting is 1/2 turn open and just leave it there, it won't go out ever, if you have a good chimney..


Well there's the rub isn't it? A "good chimney" can be hard to find.

Even when I HAD a "good chimney", I was still opening the air intake about one full turn. But I had a manual damper to keep things in check.

Now with my crap chimney, I need to be at one turn at a minimum. 1 1/4 if the outside temps will be a little warmer or if I really want some heat.

But this is with no hand damper, just a baro. During the beginning and end of season, I have to cap off the baro with foil just to make sure ALL the air goes through the stove.

This is why I don't like "hard numbers" for recommendations. Every install is different and requires totally different inputs to get the desired output.
jpete
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mk II
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Nut, Pea
Other Heating: Dino juice

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