government spending helps our economy?

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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:59 am

jpete wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:Tell us then what works and is tried and true....Libertarianism? As I have questioned in the past...where has it worked in a developed country?


How do you deny the history of the world?

From the thaler to the Spanish "piece of eight" which was legal US tender until the late 1800's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_dollar

The Spanish silver dollar had been the world's outstanding coin since the early 16th century, and was spread partially by dint of the vast silver output of the Spanish colonies in Latin America. More important, however, was that the Spanish dollar, from the 16th to the 19th century, was relatively the most stable and least debased coin in the Western world.


HOLY CRAP! A unit of money that held it's value for THREE CENTURIES!? The Federal Reserve Note has collapsed since 1971. Forty years and it's junk.

Yep, keep fighting the blatantly obvious and arguing for what clearly doesn't work.

Here's a challenge, show us a fiat currency that has lasted more than century.


So coinage or legal tender is the crux of Libertarianism? A fiat currency is much more elastic than a gold or silver backed monetary system. For a fiat currency to work, it needs the trust of everybody using it as would be the same for gold and silver. Those that trust it's use today in the U.S. is far more than those that don't! If you don't trust it...don't use it and see where that will lead you! :P Rome’s history of inflation and money debasement actually began with Cesar’s successor Augustus, whereby his method was at least not a prima facie fraud. He simply ordered the mines to overproduce silver in an attempt to finance the empire that had grown greatly under Cesar and himself. When this overproduction began to have inflationary effects, Augustus wisely decided to cut back on the issuance of coins. This was the last time that a Roman emperor attempted to honestly correct a monetary policy blunder, aside from a brief flashing up of monetary rectitude under Aurelius some 280 years later. Under Augustus’ successors, things began to deteriorate fast. Claudius , Caligula and Nero embarked on enormous spending sprees that depleted Rome’s treasury. It was Nero who first came up with the idea to actually debase coins by reducing their silver content in AD 64 , and it all went downhill from there. It is also important to note that although we are being subjected to a hidden tax, most citizens actually are quite happy with things as they are. Nearly everyone involved appears to be happy, the robbers as well as the robbed. In other words any monetary system can be debunked in one way or another!
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:53 am

Northern Maine wrote:So coinage or legal tender is the crux of Libertarianism? A fiat currency is much more elastic than a gold or silver backed monetary system. For a fiat currency to work, it needs the trust of everybody using it as would be the same for gold and silver. Those that trust it's use today in the U.S. is far more than those that don't! If you don't trust it...don't use it and see where that will lead you! :P


More threats of the government drawing its gun. When the 'Federal Reserve' and the 'Federal Income Tax' were introduced (the two being joined at the hip, with one impossible without the other) they also mandated at that time that said income tax could only be paid in FRN's. That my friend is the power of the governments gun speaking directly to its own citizens.

As to the functionality of Libertarianism, the real question to ask is: How did the government and the nation get by up until 1913, before these two draconian measures were introduced? What provisions did the Constitution itself (pre the Fed and the income tax) offer to fund the government and grow this nation into the wealthiest and most powerful nation on earth (an accomplishment which assuredly happened pre both measures)?

Yes, Libertarians are the real 'Tea Party'. They do not masquerade around in three corner hats making clowns of themselves. They truly want this nation to be great, and they see its former greatness as being inextricably linked to the early Constitution and the extremely limited and delimited Federal Government that it mandated. They want the United states to return to its original conception of being a nation of united States, wherein the 10th Amendment has meaning and purpose.

What purpose do you see for the 10th Amendment?
Last edited by lsayre on Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:03 am

You are disproving your own point.

An inflatable money supply is not a good thing!

And it wasn't an "over production" of silver, it was the fact that the Roman government was "clipping" the coins, mixing in "base" metals and re striking the coins.

Look at your dimes and quarters. They have ridges on the edge to prevent clipping. This goes back to the days when they were actually made of silver. Nickels and the new dollar coin don't have ridges because they were never made from anything valuable.

And the value of a FIAT currency relies on every bodies "faith" in it. But what happens if they don't?

The value of REAL money is representative of the WORK it took to produce that coin. To mine the ore, refine it and strike the coin all took the labor of other people. You aren't using a coin, you are trading your labor for theirs. The coin is there as a place marker for that trade.

The problem with fiat money, is the labor to produce it is miniscule compared to the work you expended to get it.
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 8:10 am

Since the government abandoned any last remaining vestiges of its original conception of currency in 1971, the FRN has lost (on average) 84% of its buying power. A strong testimony to the failure of the current system.
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: NoSmoke On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:27 am

I find it interesting that Fort Knox has not been opened to inspection since 1974.

Now I know in the bible that it says NOT to be a person constantly equating issues to be conspiracy, because I know that it is so easy to make anything that does not fit your thoughts into it being a conspiracy, but there are some alarming instances when the integrity of the gold and silver bullion owned by the United States has come into question. I recognize that there is security in letting this amount of wealth stay behind closed doors, but considering that this nation is almost equally divided, and that inflation and other fiscal issues have not hit this level of mistrust in a long, long time (if ever), personally I would like to see the doors to Fort Knox opened. It would be silly to do so every 5 years, but it has been 38 years since some of the dust has been disturbed inside that place.

I think there is no better time. Gold is at an all time high, so let's see tons of the stuff to keep the conspiracy theorists in check. They have done so in the past; why not now? If it is in there, they have nothing to hide right?

Maybe that would be a better petition to present to the White House instead of succession; a few journalists see the gold inside Fort Knox.
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:38 am

And since we have seen fake bars recently, what makes you think all that glitters is gold?

Kevin
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: jpete On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:57 pm

Northern Maine wrote: For a fiat currency to work, it needs the trust of everybody using it as would be the same for gold and silver. Those that trust it's use today in the U.S. is far more than those that don't! If you don't trust it...don't use it and see where that will lead you!


If trust is the deciding factor, and you seem to trust the government. Certainly more that I, then I have to ask, why do we run a deficit?

Why don't we just print up the money we are short at the end of the year?

An elastic currency seems important to you so why would there be an issue?

In fact, if you trust the money that government prints, why pay income taxes? Why doesn't the government simply print the money it needs?

You "trust" them right?
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Re: government spending helps our economy?

PostBy: KLook On: Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:05 pm

In fact, if you trust the money that government prints, why pay income taxes? Why doesn't the government simply print the money it needs?


That is a really good one!! The only thing taxes do is limit SOME people and make others (the poor) think they have some control over the rich. Why should anyone pay at all?? Just print what we need each year and spend it into the system and it will destroy the value of the dollar the same way.

Kevin
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