What is Libertarianism?

Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:55 am

All I've done is be born here. How do you see that as my having agreed with anything? And perhaps more importantly, how and why does that compel me to either agree with anything at the point of a government gun, or to leave? You clearly see society as being greater than the individual. By logical extension, you must agree that the needs of society place a noose around the neck of my individual abilities. Therefore I must ask you, what are the needs of society?[/quote]

You mere presence in a society that you disagree with is evidence that your choices are in agreement with it! Have you had someone point a gun at you and tell you not to make a choice? Society is only representative of the support you show it....abiding by societies rule show that you support it...otherwise you would find a society of your liking. The needs of society are presented my Mr. Boaz....if you live in a society.... you choose to live by the rules that are set forth by that society...if not....you have the right, liberty and freedom to find a society that fits your needs according to the beliefs you have based on your current knowledge.[/quote]

So you're stating that living in America, we all acknowledge that we have a gun to our heads?

Certainly doesn't sound like the "Land of the Free" to me? Sounds like "Land of the Subjugated"[/quote]

AS I have asked before...when has anyone in govt. pointed a gun to your head? :bag:
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:56 am

lsayre wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:You mere presence in a society that you disagree with is evidence that your choices are in agreement with it!


A clearer case of circular reasoning would be hard to come by. If there is any rational here whatsoever it would seem to imply that my merely legalistic straw man identity as pinned upon me by the ruling authorities lording over the society into which I was merely born has bound the real me into mandatory and indefinite servitude. Somehow this appears to fail the test of original Constitutional intent, and it certainly fails to comply with the expectations of those who penned the Declaration Of Independence. Otherwise the Founders would have been bound by their mere birth (and thereby presence) into forever bowing to and paying homage and servitude to the King of England. You seem to be demanding no more or no less than this.


EXAMPLE: A person was born into a family that believes it is o.k. to physically beat people into submission...this person realizes in the early years of life that that is not acceptable and choose either to live with it or chooses to rise above it and leave the family and live his/her life according to what they "know" is right...Should the person stay in such an environment and just go with it or remove themselves from it....it really depends on how strongly that person believes in his/ her convictions. The person realizes that no matter what they do...they ill not be able to change the situation unless they remove themselves from it and join a family that does.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:19 am

NM, you are just being coy and playing with words in the manner of the past liberals that played in this forum. Gun is a metaphor or it could be an actual gun if you don't pay your taxes and refuse arrest. I think you are intentionally "missing" the point. Do you deny the results of refusing to pay taxes? Do you refuse to acknowledge the metaphor they used for indentured servant as you have to pay to belong to society you have no control over?
I know I pay over $6000 in taxes yearly in Maine, I don't have a shred of input into the spending of it. That was done by "smarter people then me" years ago. You need new schools, gyms, music programs, science labs, full kitchens for serving lunches, busing programs that mandate a full size bus driving miles and miles for 1 kid. Or even better, pay a taxi for kids that got kicked of the bus but have the "right" to be transported to school. All under the "Its for the children" mantra i heard again and again. The kids being spit out today are not one bit more educated or intelligent then the ones coming out of the 2 room school I went to. Why all the money? It is a racket and the teachers union promotes it as it swells the ranks with more teachers, workers, administrators, etc. I recall a report released by some group in the state that said the education in Maine was top flight, they just needed more money. No kidding.

Kevin

For those unfamiliar, rural maine has few services. The schools in my town accounted for 85% give or take yearly for our budget.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:41 am

KLook wrote:NM, you are just being coy and playing with words in the manner of the past liberals that played in this forum. Gun is a metaphor or it could be an actual gun if you don't pay your taxes and refuse arrest. I think you are intentionally "missing" the point. Do you deny the results of refusing to pay taxes? Do you refuse to acknowledge the metaphor they used for indentured servant as you have to pay to belong to society you have no control over?
I know I pay over $6000 in taxes yearly in Maine, I don't have a shred of input into the spending of it. That was done by "smarter people then me" years ago. You need new schools, gyms, music programs, science labs, full kitchens for serving lunches, busing programs that mandate a full size bus driving miles and miles for 1 kid. Or even better, pay a taxi for kids that got kicked of the bus but have the "right" to be transported to school. All under the "Its for the children" mantra i heard again and again. The kids being spit out today are not one bit more educated or intelligent then the ones coming out of the 2 room school I went to. Why all the money? It is a racket and the teachers union promotes it as it swells the ranks with more teachers, workers, administrators, etc. I recall a report released by some group in the state that said the education in Maine was top flight, they just needed more money. No kidding.

Kevin

For those unfamiliar, rural maine has few services. The schools in my town accounted for 85% give or take yearly for our budget.


I'm coy if you mean that I'm Annoyingly unwilling to make a commitment to the full version of libertarianism. As far as being a liberal you may assume or interpret that I am, But, I choose to believe in what I see fit....based on the ideology from conservatives, liberals and yes, even libertarians. Each of them have ideas that I consider to be valuable and I don't completely fit in to the square that each of them present! It's easy to sit back and imagine that a person can put a label on another and say that they are one of these, but to the extreme of that label may not be a true observation. Why use a metaphor? Can they be misleading? Examples that are real are better accepted than a metaphor...Yes?
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:58 am

I know I pay over $6000 in taxes yearly in Maine, I don't have a shred of input into the spending of it. That was done by "smarter people then me" years ago. You need new schools, gyms, music programs, science labs, full kitchens for serving lunches, busing programs that mandate a full size bus driving miles and miles for 1 kid. Or even better, pay a taxi for kids that got kicked of the bus but have the "right" to be transported to school. All under the "Its for the children" mantra i heard again and again. The kids being spit out today are not one bit more educated or intelligent then the ones coming out of the 2 room school I went to. Why all the money? It is a racket and the teachers union promotes it as it swells the ranks with more teachers, workers, administrators, etc. I recall a report released by some group in the state that said the education in Maine was top flight, they just needed more money. No kidding.

Kevin

For those unfamiliar, rural maine has few services. The schools in my town accounted for 85% give or take yearly for our budget.[/quote]

I pay $1100 in property taxes....I choose to do so not because of the metaphor concept, but because my road is plowed, fire services are provided effectively, my children are attending school and being educated and all budget request leave an opportunity in my town to vote for or against it via town meeting....thus far my agreement in school operation has lead me to disagreement in one fashion...letting our entire school system out for harvest. I don't believe that letting our children out of school for only 5% of them to work in harvest is "just". However, the school year is adjusted for this and the system makes appropriate antidotes to deal with the effects of my concerns.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 am

Not sure what your problem with metaphors is, people have been put on the end of a gun over taxes. Or I guess you could argue their behavior when they and their assets were seized for taxes put them on the end of the gun.
Schools are a boondoggle. I know many successful highly regarded people that came from lousy backgrounds and went to "inadequate" schools. In my community, the road is state plowed, the fire department is volunteer, we have no police, and my taxes on my home property alone went from under $400 to $1800 in 22 years. If all the other things you deem necessary made up only 15%, my taxes would be $270. I had 2 kids in school as well. I did not find their quality of education any better then mine. Just surrounded with a much more expensive atmosphere. Women especially want lavish surroundings for the children and to make rules about decisions that are supposed to be up to the parents. It is apparent in the education system in Maine when in my youth, most board members were men. Now they are made up of women who are compassionate and very willing to spend the taxpayers money if it gets one bit of perceived advantage for THEIR children. I have seen them get into the Little League system and try to change the rules, set out by Williamsport, to get their own kid and advantage somehow. Even if it meant giving up the charter for Little League baseball, they wanted their kid to be a winner at all cost to everyone else. Gimme, gimme, gimme. You don't have to point at black people to find it. The rise in public sector unions is to blame also.

You do not choose to spend $1100, you are mandated and will pay it or lose your home. And you will pay it and more for the rest of your life. The progressive tax code is pure socialism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I have more property so I pay more. Or more valuable property. what if my income is the same or less then yours? Why should an asset that was the foundation of freedom for the founders be taken away? When all is lost and I have no income or inadequate income, my property is taken away. Wasn't it mine? Where in the deed or title did it say I was just renting it? I still have deeds to the low water mark in the tidal bays and rivers, when they stole this property, no compensation was issued. Why not? a valuable commodity was removed forcibly and no cares given to the owner because of the greater good. Socialism. Now they are continuing on and taking the land ON the rivers and oceans, for the greater good. As if unreal taxation wasn't restrictive enough for the locals. They had to do more because the people moving here had the money to pay what they considered to be a paltry sum in taxes. See NH. :shock:

This is a long rant and covers many things in modern society. You are not free whatsoever. You just think you are because you can go hunting and driving about and you know of other countries that are more restrictive. If you get beat with a bat and I get beat with a ruler, I guess I have it better, but I still got a beating.

Kevin

Kevin
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:46 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
AS I have asked before...when has anyone in govt. pointed a gun to your head? :bag:


You mean the actual police service weapon I had the pleasure of looking down the wrong end or the metaphorical one that hangs over us every day?

Go ahead NM, step outside the lines. You'll find a gun waiting for you.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:25 pm

jpete wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:
AS I have asked before...when has anyone in govt. pointed a gun to your head? :bag:


You mean the actual police service weapon I had the pleasure of looking down the wrong end or the metaphorical one that hangs over us every day?

Go ahead NM, step outside the lines. You'll find a gun waiting for you.


I mean the actual police service weapon...I live well within the lines...yet you on the other hand are suspect! :bag:
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:13 pm

I random person claimed I had a gun and until I convinced them otherwise, I was treated as if I did.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:43 pm

I also have stared down the barrel of a gun. And I was standing at a pay phone in a well lite 7-11 parking lot in a really small town. The cop was at fault as it worked out. To long a story to go into details. Lets just say I left Texas shortly after without the money I was owed for working.

Kevin
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:04 pm

I was going through one of those non-random DUI check points in a bad area, one officer on each side of the vehicle. When asked for my license & owners card I simply said for everyone's best interests I was telling him I had a gun & didn't want to reach for my wallet, expose the gun & get shot. With that there were two guns pulled & I just calmly did what I was told, got out of my truck when he opened the door while keeping my hands out in sight. The gun was pulled out of my holster & I then produced my CCP, they thanked me for helping them to do their job & I was shortly on my way. No big deal, they did the right thing & so did I & we all got to go home safely, they have a difficult job to do & have every right to keep everyone safe including themselves.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: NoSmoke On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:08 pm

Klook...unfortunately you are right, and while I do not want to get dragged into this too deeply, last week the Commissioner of Maine Dept of Agriculture stated a very sad fact that is pertinent here: 80% of the Maine Budget goes to Human Services.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: jpete On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:04 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
EXAMPLE: A person was born into a family that believes it is o.k. to physically beat people into submission...this person realizes in the early years of life that that is not acceptable and choose either to live with it or chooses to rise above it and leave the family and live his/her life according to what they "know" is right...Should the person stay in such an environment and just go with it or remove themselves from it....it really depends on how strongly that person believes in his/ her convictions. The person realizes that no matter what they do...they ill not be able to change the situation unless they remove themselves from it and join a family that does.


...and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...


I don't see anything there that says if you don't like how the place is being run, you are duty bound to leave.
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: KLook On: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:06 pm

80% of the Maine Budget goes to Human Services.


Yes and many think that is the way it should be. There was a woman running for an elected office here in Tenn. this fall and her slogan was "People before Profits". Sounds just like Maine. Spend magic money on them that you take from the rich, who ever that is. And everything in Maine is scaled by the rest of New England without the tax base to support it. Scary figure and all the more reason that they put the cost of education back on communities rather then fund it at the level they promised to get it sold to the public. Just like tree growth law, they were going to reimburse the towns 100% of lost revenue, but it is about 55% or something like that. So they mandate spending and screw you out of revenue and tell you to suck it up.

Kevin
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Re: What is Libertarianism?

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:41 am

KLook wrote:
80% of the Maine Budget goes to Human Services.


Yes and many think that is the way it should be. There was a woman running for an elected office here in Tenn. this fall and her slogan was "People before Profits". Sounds just like Maine. Spend magic money on them that you take from the rich, who ever that is. And everything in Maine is scaled by the rest of New England without the tax base to support it. Scary figure and all the more reason that they put the cost of education back on communities rather then fund it at the level they promised to get it sold to the public. Just like tree growth law, they were going to reimburse the towns 100% of lost revenue, but it is about 55% or something like that. So they mandate spending and screw you out of revenue and tell you to suck it up.

Kevin


What percentage of the population are elderly, children, mentally challenged, etc? and What percentage of them attribute to that 80%? Do we let them go by the wayside? I think we could most likely trim some fat of that 80%...but how much? Maine's elderly population is even higher than Florida per capita...
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