Michigan "Right To Work"

Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: Northern Maine On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:30 pm

jpete wrote:
Northern Maine wrote:
Jpete...was wondering if in your situation you had a choice to be a union member or not? I don't have a hidden agenda in this question...I'm just curious.


In as much as I didn't have to work at the place I did, then obviously no. No one "forced" me to work there. But I was working as a garage mechanic with a degree in machining because I wanted to be a machinist and they were hiring.

In order to work there, as a machinist, yes, I had to be a member of the bargaining unit.

And for the record, I'm not in any way, shape, or form against collective bargaining. I'm against the unfair advantage the government gives union at the bargaining table.


Can you address and clarify the unfair advantages that the government gives unions?
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:23 pm

Northern Maine wrote:
Can you address and clarify the unfair advantages that the government gives unions?


Easy. The government REQUIRES employers to recognize and negotiate with a union.

No such protection is provided for the individual.

If a union asks for X, Y, and Z, the employer MUST respond to it.

If an individual employee asks for the same, the employer can tell them to pound sand.

If an individual doesn't like his working conditions, he is fired and the employer finds someone else.

If a union doesn't like the working conditions, it can hold the employer hostage for days to months.

Witness the recent strike in California by the clerical workers at the shipping port. Not only did they hold the company hostage, they threatened half the country by shutting down the point of entry of many consumer goods.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:32 pm

What does that have to do with the Govt? I don't know where you got this REQUIRED deal??? Yes, the Govt can mandate people go back to work in certain circumstances as like when the people on both sides get way stupid as so often happens with this NEW generation union crap.
Last edited by freetown fred on Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:39 pm

freetown fred wrote:What does that have to do with the Govt? I don't know where you got this REQUIRED deal???


Because the law(government) says an employer MUST negotiate with a union. Is that not the case?
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:41 pm

I edited--sorry
freetown fred wrote:What does that have to do with the Govt? I don't know where you got this REQUIRED deal??? Yes, the Govt can mandate people go back to work in certain circumstances as like when the people on both sides get way stupid as so often happens with this NEW generation union crap. Required to negotiate has nothing to do with either side resolving anything, unfortunatly.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:01 pm

No problem.

And I'm glad you added in the part about "resolving".

What is the incentive for a union to "resolve" anything when they know that the only thing the employer can do is settle or shut down because the government is standing on the unions side of the table?

Let's put it this way, as an individual, could you "hold out" for what you wanted or would you more or less accept what the company offered? There can be a negotiation, but at some point, you either accept it or go your own way.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: freetown fred On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:15 pm

I have never worked for a company (might be hard to believe in THIS day & AGE that did not negotiate fairly with it's workers--yes, carpentry & electricians at different points in time-I read currently what some of these unions are asking for--I'll just throwthe teachers union out there--and I find it to be some sort of a bad joke. Answer being, I've never been in a position where the 2 sides did not comprimise & reach an agreement-- Soooo, yes, I stuck it out. Times were different, kinda like the Constitution situation, times were different
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: rubicondave33 On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:39 pm

Coalfire wrote:
NoSmoke wrote:Unions have the highest pay scales, not because they point a gun at the temple of the company's CEO, but because it is a negotiated contract. The company can, and will decide if the pay and benefits suggested by the Union are something it can abide with and still make a profit. Company executives should never agree to something that they can not live with...it is a collective bargaining agreement after all and they can say no.



I was going along till you made the statement above, this is where I must disagree. I had a chat with a union worker about four years ago, "He said I know the economy is tough and the shops not making much money, but If we don't get a raise were striking." How can you deal with a person or union with that mentallity?



Eric

We don't strike, if an agreement isn't reached we continue working under the terms of the expired agreement. We've managed to reach agreements prior to expiration for quite some time now.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:45 pm

freetown fred wrote:I have never worked for a company (might be hard to believe in THIS day & AGE that did not negotiate fairly with it's workers--yes, carpentry & electricians at different points in time-I read currently what some of these unions are asking for--I'll just throwthe teachers union out there--and I find it to be some sort of a bad joke. Answer being, I've never been in a position where the 2 sides did not comprimise & reach an agreement-- Soooo, yes, I stuck it out. Times were different, kinda like the Constitution situation, times were different


I used to drive by these guys when I was a kid and then I ended up working with some of them at the last place I worked for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_%26_Sharpe

Yet despite the policies aimed at maintaining job security, Brown & Sharpe began to make demands that sat uneasily with its workers and union leaders. In 1981, President Don Roach insisted that the company exercise the ability to shift machinists between jobs as needed, but many workers worried that this policy would ignore traditional seniority privileges. In response, 1,600 union workers, members of the International Association of Machinists District Lodge 64, walked out on their jobs in what would become the longest-lasting strike in the nation's history and one of the most antagonistic in recent memory. The strike's hostility transcended the mere debate over the company's labor policy and brought up questions of whether Brown & Sharpe needed its Rhode Island work force at all. The hostilities between labor and management, as well as the deteriorating status of organized labor at the national level, are symbolized well by the incident of March 22, 1982, in which 800 picketers clashed with the state and local police force, leading to the use of tear gas on the former employees. Governor J. Joseph Garrahy publicly apologized for the actions of the police, which appeared unduly severe to many Rhode Island citizens. Although the strike legally continued after the tear-gas incident, the picket line largely disbanded and many workers realized it was time to move on. It was not until 1998, nearly seventeen years after the strike began, that the Rhode Island Supreme Court ended the legal battle, ultimately siding with Brown & Sharpe in its plea that it had not illegally forced the strike. By this point, both Brown & Sharpe and its erstwhile work force were retreating from manufacturing in Rhode Island.



One of the "Wonders of the Industrial World" reduced to a shadow of it's former self and 30 years later, a multi national corporation shuts down a profitable branch over the same foolishness.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: colt On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:04 pm

I'm a member of the CWA.My Union has done nothing to help get the seniority Bridged for AT&T workers.Workers laid off back in 1996 and rehired by Ameritech who was purchase by SBC who then purchase AT&T.Now Hundreds of my Union brothers & sisters have seniority with AT&T two times and the Union is doing nothing to get our Time Bridged.I'll be one of the first to tell the Union to get out of my pocket.
Colt
Detroit Mich.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: jpete On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:11 pm

rubicondave33 wrote:We don't strike, if an agreement isn't reached we continue working under the terms of the expired agreement. We've managed to reach agreements prior to expiration for quite some time now.


You're working under the old agreement because that's the only recourse a company has other than to have you strike.

We did that several times.

My question is, after the contract expires, what is the legal responsibility for the company and the union?

Say they don't want to work under the conditions of the old contract, why does the union get to strike?

Both sides negotiated a contract that had an end date. Say, August 1, 2013.

If a new contract isn't signed by the first, what happens on the second? The contract is expired. Why is the company legally bound to deal with the union after that?

If I were a contractor remodeling your kitchen and we had a contract that said all work would be done by August 1, 2013, and I get the job done by that day, do I get to say, "I'm not leaving until you give me a new contract to remodel the bathroom?"
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: rubicondave33 On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:37 pm

When I refer to our agreement, its our labor agreement, not contract to perform a job. When our agreement expires, it doesn't matter where we are with a project, we finish it. The contractors are closed shops by choice, if they choose to work open, they may but they can't be double breasted. Our job is to complete the projects for the customer and our bid price is based on contract. If the agreement expires without a negotiated renewal, we finish the project with the old agreement in effect. The last time I worked under those circumstances was in 1999, since then labor agreement negotiations have been completed prior to the expiration. As I stated earlier, we do not strike. We continue to perform both jobs in progress and new jobs, without stoppage of construction.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: samhill On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:40 pm

I think that either I have worked for a small, weak union for most of my life or there are a lot of you that have never worked for one & believe all the hype you hear about how these ultra-powerful evil unions with a bunch of undeserving worthless employees running companies out of the country. I never saw the power that is described here from my mealy mouthed union which was to the point of being just another branch of the company.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: SMITTY On: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:49 pm

That's the point most on the left don't get. We're talking about the BIG, Obama donating, corrupt, thug unions like AFL-CIO - not MOST of the little guys.

Although my buddy worked for Local 4 driving truck, and when push came to shove, they took his money and left him high and dry.

Unions once served a purpose. Most today have just become as bloated and corrupt as our government.
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Re: Michigan "Right To Work"

PostBy: NoSmoke On: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:13 am

SMITTY wrote:We're talking about the BIG, Obama donating, corrupt, thug unions like AFL-CIO - not MOST of the little guys.


Ahhhh.....the AFL-CIO is not a Union at all, it is an association of Unions and thus have almost no power other then pooling money and lobbying Washington for the betterment of the Unions that they belong to.

It is no different then the Soil and Water Conservation District I am affiliated with. We belong to the Maine Soil and Water Conservation Districts, who also belong to the National Association of Soil and Water Conservation Districts; the higher you go up on the chain, the less they have to do with the individual, their main purpose is to lobby Congress as a collective body of Conservation Districts...or Unions. The AFL-CIO has strength, not from what what they do for the individual, but because they can bring in International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers to an event, but also bring in The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers for instance, in a unified front.

I have been in Management in a Union Shop (railroad) and I have been on the Union roosters (Railroad and Shipbuilding), and when done properly and professionally, managing a Union can actually be easier. What I found as a Manager was, you just need to know the Contract better then the workers, in that case knowing what they can and cannot do allows you to get the job done. When they say, "I don't have to do that", you can say, "well according to the Union Contract it say's..." and they then go to work. Most of the time I worked with the Shop Stewards and by taking them aside and saying, "I have been having an issue with this guy", and together we would figure out how to remedy it so the work got done. In a way it was easier because the shop steward was a part of the management strategy. But when you have Manager's that just throw up their hands and say "nothing can be done", things went awry, just like the other extreme, with bull-headed managers that thought they were going to break the Union by being tough. You have to pick your battles, but effective form of management crosses Union and Non-Union Shops alike.
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