If you're American...

freetown fred wrote:News Flash--The Founding Fathers--God rest their souls all & one, are dead. Their idea of readdressing the Constitution every nine yrs unfortunately died with them. Creating the whacko fanaticism we unfortunately have to hear from a small number of wannabe PATRIOTS.

If "patriots" are required to love their country warts and all, shouldn't we still be British?

I don't think so.

After the American Revolution, due to debt and to strengthen a central government the Whiskey Act was presented which was the first real "Sin Tax" in this country and not a very popular one at that. Farmers had long used the left over grain to produce alcohol which was used as barter to help gain services and pay bills, and they were none too happy that they had fought for ideals that were not being upheld.

I say that because Henry Knox had amassed a lot of land in Maine and built an estate in Thomaston and had every intention of having a plantation here like they did in the deep south and using the very freedom fighters that helped him gain what he had to live a posh lives on their hard work. Nice plan perhaps, but Mainer's are independent and did not think highly of that. I know because my Forefather's fought under Henry Knox being high up in his command as Officer's and having lost family members in the war, were not about to let him subjugate them.

Today The Whiskey Tax Rebellion only mentions New York and PA, but few know that the first skirmish was actually in Maine, and in the very town I live in. My forefather's were not at all happy, and when George Washington sent troops in to make them pay the tax, his troops found out that these Dumb Sheep Farmer's could not only level a musket at Red Coats, but at them as well, and had no problems pulling the hammers back and setting a flash in the pan; in others words; for the first time in our history, musket balls flew back at Federal Troops in peace time. Outnumbered by a bunch of lowly ole sheep farmers, they ran back with their tails between the legs. Washington is credited for overpowering the rebellion west of us granted, but in reality the tax was hard to impose and it was ignored by farmers.

Ultimately Henry Knox was toppled by his own vices and killed by his own arrogance, but Mainer's had shown that they believed in what they had fought for in the American Revolution and had clearly shown that they were not going to be subjugated; by the King of England, nor a new form of government, and were willing to stare down the barrel of a musket in defiance.

But if a "patriot" must support his country warts and all, would there have been a Revolutionary War to begin with?

It was only a minority that wanted to break with England. Even John Adams didn't particularly want to.

So in your view, they should have shut up or moved to Mexico, correct?

In my view there was a need to change on a global scale from a Monarchy System to something better, and that something better was a system of Government designed by God to carry out God's sovereignty and will for the world that he created. I believe God installed in our Forefather Morals and Ethics that were transcribed into the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and the Constitution to start a form of Government that was more inline with his wishes.

To that end, this country has established itself as a prominent power on the World Wide Theater and has accomplished some astonishing things as we have changed and evolved through the years for the betterment of mankind. Abolishing slavery, stopping the destruction in Europe in the First World War and defeating Hitler and his war on God's chosen people...the Israeli's, and ultimately helping them to establish their nation again.

But just as their is Justification through Faith, there is also danger in having freedom, and without morals and ethics to keep us from turning to the left or to the right, without a moral compass, we are in danger of turning our back on the Creator of Life. It is no different then grabbing my 6 year old daughter and holding her down until she says "I love you Dad", because doing so has no meaning to it. God has given us a choice so that when we do worship God, it has just as much meaning as when my daughter comes up to me while sitting in my chair and says, "Dad, I love you". How how much more meaning that has, and that is what he wants from us. Today, as a Nation, I feel we are turning our back on God and the moral standards on which this country was founded and there are undoubtedly consequences for that.

Personally I see Maine as an example of this. A State that has the dubious honor of having not only the worst business climate for the 3rd straight year in a row, but also has the lowest church attendance by population. As one guy said, "Maine is always in a recession", and I think it is no coincidence that turning our back on God is a consequence of that.

So I do not see our Forefather's as worthy of worship...I see them as having God-Inspired Morals and Ethics that we should cherish today, but merely they were men at the right time, and the right place in which global change was needed and placed there by God. Unfortunately for this country we are not mentioned in the end times. There may be reasons why we are not mentioned, but ultimately it shows we are not of influence when God chooses to truly reign on this earth. Still it would be silly to throw up our hands now and say, "well this is it, throw in the towel", because we are told in the bible not to do that, to stand up and fight for the morals and ethics we were originally built upon for as long as we can. We may know that our influence will some day end, but we do not know when.

As for my own family, we have paid the ultimate price as a family, losing family members in conflict for both the Kind of England (French and Indian War) and during the American Revolution. The latter died for an idea of government that they were willing to lay down their lives for because their God-Inspired Morals and Ethics derived from the bible, not from an allegiance to the Continental Congress.

every American citizen is an American, for better or worse, despite the observation that some people think "they" are More American than others due to their religion, political affiliation, interpretation of the Constitution, or genetic origin.

Key word being citizen!!!!!!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/citizen
Thus the next key word being....
1
: an inhabitant of a city or town; especially : one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman

Freeman! Period

NS, I respect your beliefs & you have every right to believe as you wish but there have been & still are more people killed in the name of their God or beliefs than anything else IMO. Some seem to just use their God or beliefs as another means to justify or criticize everything else, I was always told the only thing worse than talking about politics is talking about religion & you seem to want to bring the two into the same response for everything. Not to criticize or single anyone out but do you really feel that a belief of only one way is the answer to everything?
And again no disrespect meant just wonder how some come to this conclusion.

I certainly agree that we are the most fortunate people on this planet to be where we are, when we are. Like other's I complain because nothing is ever going to be perfect (even if it was/is) .
That said, I have to respectfully disagree that " Our's was a system of Government designed by God to carry out God's sovereignty and will for the world that he created."

Our system was created by men for themselves. I'm sure I'll catch flack for being a godless atheist but people are always claiming God for their Political parties, systems of Gov, worship, etc. to somehow make themselves feel "right" or dare I say even superior to others and their beliefs and systems of Gov, worship, etc... Honestly if a God designed it, wouldn't it be without flaw and what about those other folks on other parts of the planet who say their systems of worship or government are "God given"? There is certainly plenty of them and we have been fighting about it for eon's. That's the conundrum for me.
Me, I don't think God has anything to do with it. We humans do it all good and bad. Just my take on it.

That is okay, this is the Thoughtful and Intelligent Debates section which is exactly what we are engaged in.

To answer your question Samhill, the reason why I bring God into everything is because of a rather simple concept; the closer you are to God, the more you see God in everything. I know this truism because unfortunately I had gotten away from him for many years and there is carnage in my life to show for that.

As for the Forefathers, SteveZee. it is not me that said this, but is stated in the Bible in the Book of Proverbs, Chapter 21, verse One:

The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord,
Like the rivers of water;
He turns it wherever He wishes.

You are indeed right, man can not make a perfect form of government otherwise they would be God. God has not kept anything a secrete and we will see what a perfect form of government is like as described in the book of Revelations, Chapter 20 regarding the 1000 year rein.

I believe God inspired our Forefathers with this form of government, but they did not always do as inspired because as man we screw up. One area I believe they messed up in is in the electoral college. In short they doubted the people of the nation and set up this system. You can actually see this very thing happen in the bible when King David really screwed up. God told him that he could attack his enemy and win, but David had a moment of doubt, did not trust God's instruction, and had a census taken to see how many soldiers he had that could take on the enemy. He was even warned by his chief priest NOT to do the census, but he continued and was punished severely for it. I am not saying I hate the electoral college aspect of government and all that, my point simply shows that even the Forefathers had doubt at what they were creating, and like King David, it proves that they were men and screwed some things up.

I am right along with the rest of you though, despite our problems and imperfections, there is no place to run too. In fact, sometimes I don't think we realize just how good we have it in this country.

SteveZee wrote:I certainly agree that we are the most fortunate people on this planet to be where we are, when we are. Like other's I complain because nothing is ever going to be perfect (even if it was/is) .
That said, I have to respectfully disagree that " Our's was a system of Government designed by God to carry out God's sovereignty and will for the world that he created."

Our system was created by men for themselves. I'm sure I'll catch flack for being a godless atheist but people are always claiming God for their Political parties, systems of Gov, worship, etc. to somehow make themselves feel "right" or dare I say even superior to others and their beliefs and systems of Gov, worship, etc... Honestly if a God designed it, wouldn't it be without flaw and what about those other folks on other parts of the planet who say their systems of worship or government are "God given"? There is certainly plenty of them and we have been fighting about it for eon's. That's the conundrum for me.
Me, I don't think God has anything to do with it. We humans do it all good and bad. Just my take on it.

I don't know any God-fearing man that finds himself superior to others based solely on his belief in God. Your opinion of religious folks is skewed ... like I find with most atheists ... but not all (Penn Gillette gets it).

Government & society is made of MEN - of course it's flawed. God does not give handouts like our government - he points you in the right direction .... but only those that listen will get the message.

Smitty I understand the social aspect of organised religion and can certainly see the value in that. But I do also see that manypeople are intolerant of other beliefs (Wanting to be right or in the True religion as they will claim). There is also, I stated possibly superior feelings because of it. A perfect example are those who claim that only THEY are going to heaven because of their beliefs and others will not.

I'm the last person that should be quoting the bible (born & raised in MA ... it's tough to be religious when blasphemy is jammed down your throat from birth ...), but there is a passage in there that specifically says, that those who believe will go to the Kingdom of the Lord.

If you don't believe that, that's certainly your choice ... but you can't fault others for believing what the good book says.

As I had asked what makes your personal belief trump every other belief, most that I know of say there is only one true God so why is it that your belief is in that true God & all others are mistaken?

Because that's the way it is.

Muslims believe mohammed is their god ( I guess ), so it's the same thing .. except those that don't believe they think should DIE. Why does everyone demonize Christians but nobody says a word about muslims?

Probably because Christians won't blow themselves up in a crowd of muslims ...

Actually many believe in what would be the same one God, it's just the human element that starts dividing the religions & their directions, people were on earth long before the written word or drawings, was there no God then?