If you're American...

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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: SteveZee On: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:12 pm

SMITTY wrote:Because that's the way it is.

Muslims believe mohammed is their god ( I guess ), so it's the same thing .. except those that don't believe they think should DIE. Why does everyone demonize Christians but nobody says a word about muslims?

Probably because Christians won't blow themselves up in a crowd of muslims ...

Maybe not lately but look at the Crusades! More people were killed in the name of religion than any other issue. On all sides. Lets not forget present day Nigeria where, as we type, Christians and Muslims are slaughtering each other.
Last edited by SteveZee on Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:10 pm

Muslims believe in the same God as Christians and believe Jesus was a prophet. They also believe Mohammed was the last prophet. Both Christianity and Islam as well as Judaism have had their share of wackos and fanatics.

A good many leaders of the Crusades had motives other than freeing the Holy Land. They won because the Muslims were too busy killing each other.

Look about and everything you see are manifestations of God. Science is the seeking of God's law. There are also a great many things you don't see, but are there. The cognition of the mystery or ultimate reality is reserved for those very few holy men that appear from time to time.

What science we have that studies man has been corrupted by uncomfortable truths or political correctness so those areas are avoided to instead split hairs over the meaningless.
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: SteveZee On: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:35 pm

I'll agree with that last sentence Richard. Pure science has oft times been hard to "enlighten" because of the ramifications of disagreeing with the status quo or current beliefs. This is nothing new.
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: NoSmoke On: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:49 pm

The Muslim God is not the same God of the Christian faith simple because if you read the Quran, you will never see in any place where it says that Allah loves you. Read the whole thing if you want; you will never see that phrase anywhere in there and more than one Muslim has been converted to Christianity when they realize Allah they were so willing to die for, never even says he loves them. Yet if you read through the bible, it is the one determining factor that sets us apart. In fact in all the religions, you will never find a God that does not require something from man...only Christianity. The only thing we have to do is accept his gift of faith.

It is no different then me telling you that if you come to my house I will give you $100 dollar bill. You don't have to work for it, trade for it, or even ask for it...all you have to do is accept it. It is a gift, but YOU decide if you are going to take that gift or not; and that my friend is justification by faith. That by taking that $100 dollar bill you got something tangible for doing nothing. A free, generous offer...all other religions require man to do something for them. God loves us too much to do that; just as I would not grab you by the collar and force you to the ground and demand that you take my $100 dollar bill. If you don't take it, that is your loss.

Now if you read the bible, it says clearly to do as God has done. A lot of non-christian tend to bring up things PEOPLE have done, like the Crusades for instance, and yet nowhere in the bible does it say to follow the people that follow the God of the bible. It never says to do what Smitty has done, or do what NoSmoke has done, because we are human and that will get you into trouble. This is where non-christian's really go sideways...it just says to follow the bible. And when we screw up...and we will, he loves us and forgives us just the same. Just like with your kids. You told them not to do things; you did not tell them those things just to be mean, but to keep them from getting hurt, yet they still did it anyway, but being a Dad, you still love them just the same. That is why the bible refers to God as our "father" and yet the Quran NEVER says that.

It is these principals that are so simple, and so true that shows the bible is true.

I encourage you to read Proverbs and see if that makes sense to you. Read just one chapter a night since 31 chapters fits into most months nicely...and see if it makes sense. If it does, (or you dislike that Format), try reading the Book of John...see if that makes sense.
NoSmoke
 
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: SteveZee On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:20 am

NoSmoke wrote:The Muslim God is not the same God of the Christian faith simple because if you read the Quran, you will never see in any place where it says that Allah loves you. Read the whole thing if you want; you will never see that phrase anywhere in there and more than one Muslim has been converted to Christianity when they realize Allah they were so willing to die for, never even says he loves them. Yet if you read through the bible, it is the one determining factor that sets us apart. In fact in all the religions, you will never find a God that does not require something from man...only Christianity. The only thing we have to do is accept his gift of faith.

It is no different then me telling you that if you come to my house I will give you $100 dollar bill. You don't have to work for it, trade for it, or even ask for it...all you have to do is accept it. It is a gift, but YOU decide if you are going to take that gift or not; and that my friend is justification by faith. That by taking that $100 dollar bill you got something tangible for doing nothing. A free, generous offer...all other religions require man to do something for them. God loves us too much to do that; just as I would not grab you by the collar and force you to the ground and demand that you take my $100 dollar bill. If you don't take it, that is your loss.

Now if you read the bible, it says clearly to do as God has done. A lot of non-christian tend to bring up things PEOPLE have done, like the Crusades for instance, and yet nowhere in the bible does it say to follow the people that follow the God of the bible. It never says to do what Smitty has done, or do what NoSmoke has done, because we are human and that will get you into trouble. This is where non-christian's really go sideways...it just says to follow the bible. And when we screw up...and we will, he loves us and forgives us just the same. Just like with your kids. You told them not to do things; you did not tell them those things just to be mean, but to keep them from getting hurt, yet they still did it anyway, but being a Dad, you still love them just the same. That is why the bible refers to God as our "father" and yet the Quran NEVER says that.

It is these principals that are so simple, and so true that shows the bible is true.

I encourage you to read Proverbs and see if that makes sense to you. Read just one chapter a night since 31 chapters fits into most months nicely...and see if it makes sense. If it does, (or you dislike that Format), try reading the Book of John...see if that makes sense.


""It is these principals that are so simple, and so true that shows the bible is true"

To you maybe but I don't understand your rational? How does that "show that the bible is true?" Because its an easy guidline to follow?

To me sounds like a nice way "out" for those who know they can "screw up" and by golly it's not a problem because the bible says so. How convienient! I'm not trying to be condesending but you are proving my point about rightiousness (and feeling of superiority) for me. Your right about one thing, it's very simplistic. I'd like to think my actions are held to a little higher standard than what you are describing and in fact that I might NOT be forgiven if I do the wrong things.

Yes I agree with you that those "things" you describe were done by people but lets not forget what their justifications for those things were. Once again, it was for THEIR faith versus that of others. Because you can right that off as being ok because the bible tells me I'll be forgiven by my father or anyone else doesn't cut it. I can see the "sheep in the flock" comparison though, which is exactly what organised religeons want you to be. Lastly, lets not forget who wrote the Bible. People. Same as the Quran, same as the Upanishads the Mahaburata etc...etc....The part about their God is different than yours because he doesn't say he loves you? Not buying that one either and it's apropos to nothing in regards to who's is real or right or true.
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: If you're American...

PostBy: Awesome Universe On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:08 am

SMITTY wrote:Because that's the way it is.

Muslims believe mohammed is their god ( I guess ), so it's the same thing .. except those that don't believe they think should DIE. Why does everyone demonize Christians but nobody says a word about muslims?

Probably because Christians won't blow themselves up in a crowd of muslims ...

This post as if reversing all facts !!
http://www.islam-guide.com/ may help for abc islam, if you are unsure about something, use this http://bemuslims.weebly.com/muslims-search-engine.html for answers from islamic sites rather than saying non sense about a religion of bilions of people you have no idea about :cry:
Awesome Universe
 

Re: If you're American...

PostBy: Awesome Universe On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:16 am

NoSmoke wrote:The Muslim God is not the same God of the Christian faith simple because if you read the Quran, you will never see in any place where it says that Allah loves you. Read the whole thing if you want; you will never see that phrase anywhere in there and more than one Muslim has been converted to Christianity when they realize Allah they were so willing to die for, never even says he loves them. Yet if you read through the bible, it is the one determining factor that sets us apart. In fact in all the religions, you will never find a God that does not require something from man...only Christianity. The only thing we have to do is accept his gift of faith.

It is no different then me telling you that if you come to my house I will give you $100 dollar bill. You don't have to work for it, trade for it, or even ask for it...all you have to do is accept it. It is a gift, but YOU decide if you are going to take that gift or not; and that my friend is justification by faith. That by taking that $100 dollar bill you got something tangible for doing nothing. A free, generous offer...all other religions require man to do something for them. God loves us too much to do that; just as I would not grab you by the collar and force you to the ground and demand that you take my $100 dollar bill. If you don't take it, that is your loss.

Now if you read the bible, it says clearly to do as God has done. A lot of non-christian tend to bring up things PEOPLE have done, like the Crusades for instance, and yet nowhere in the bible does it say to follow the people that follow the God of the bible. It never says to do what Smitty has done, or do what NoSmoke has done, because we are human and that will get you into trouble. This is where non-christian's really go sideways...it just says to follow the bible. And when we screw up...and we will, he loves us and forgives us just the same. Just like with your kids. You told them not to do things; you did not tell them those things just to be mean, but to keep them from getting hurt, yet they still did it anyway, but being a Dad, you still love them just the same. That is why the bible refers to God as our "father" and yet the Quran NEVER says that.

It is these principals that are so simple, and so true that shows the bible is true.

I encourage you to read Proverbs and see if that makes sense to you. Read just one chapter a night since 31 chapters fits into most months nicely...and see if it makes sense. If it does, (or you dislike that Format), try reading the Book of John...see if that makes sense.

John Gill in his commentary stated:

All men are not the objects of God's love, only a special people, whom he has chosen in Christ; for whom he has given his Son, when they were sinners and enemies; whom he quickens and calls by his grace, justifies, pardons, and accepts in Christ; and whom he causes to love him; these he loves with an everlasting and unchangeable love, and in a free and sovereign way, without any regard to any motive or condition in them. (John Gill, The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible, Commentary on Hebrews 12:6, Source:http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=heb&chapter=012&verse=006)

The Qur’an Cannot Be A Text of Divine Origin :
http://comparativreligion.blogspot.com/2012/10/the-quran-cannot-be-text-of-divine.html
Awesome Universe
 

Re: If you're American...

PostBy: NoSmoke On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:49 am

SteveZee

That is the beauty of the bible, everything you mention is stated in there. It is a very simple concept to understand and even states that even a young child can understand its message. Again because God loves us all...and he wants a personal relationship with us. That is why he created us...read Genesis Chapters 1-2 to see it.

But your arguments are silly; you have not proficient in the bible or the Quran, and yet you say you just don't believe it. That is like someone who always burns wood, hears about the great things of burning coal, and simply throws up his hands and says, "Well I don't believe burning coal is that great". If you never have tried it, or read the bible or the Quran, then you cannot make much of an argument against what I am saying.

My suggestion to you is to try and prove me wrong. Lee Stroble was a devout atheist and set out to prove that there was no God...I suggest you read his books or watch his videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I85e6TLRC3k
NoSmoke
 
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: SteveZee On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:04 am

You see my arguments as silly as much as I see you're statements as childish by claiming something must be true because you believe it is. I find that pretty silly. You also make assumptions about me. You don't know me or what I might be proficient in, nor what I may or may not have read and interpreted.

Everything you've said could be asked of you. I won't ask you to prove I'm wrong, I don't need you to. I'd just ask you to prove your are right, but I already know the answer to that one. Lastly I've got some reading for you. It's by Richard Dawkins.
SteveZee
 
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:21 am

Personally I believe that there was & is some sort of higher more advanced power (beings), I on the other hand have never had a conversation with him or them. In my lifetime I have met & become friends with many people of many different faiths & beliefs & found very little difference with any as people except in my own experience (which isn't too limited) the only ones that I tend to trust the least are the ones that believe that after they do evil all they have to do is look up & praise the lord for they have been saved & have merely stumbled a bit & have now been once again forgiven. That is just my personal experience it very well could be just my area & my unfortunate luck but I have some very you might say unsavory friends that I would trust to cover my back with no problem. I can't say the same for everyone, again it could be just my dumb luck but as someone pointed out all these books were written by man & in most cases revised several times, what's up with that?
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:26 am

Ahhh!! Next you guys are going to tell me there is no Santa Clause. :cry:
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: SteveZee On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:43 am

Flyer5 wrote:Ahhh!! Next you guys are going to tell me there is no Santa Clause. :cry:

:lol: :clap:
SteveZee
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Modern Oak 116 & Glenwood 208 C Range

Re: If you're American...

PostBy: samhill On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:18 am

No, no, Santa the Easter Bunny & yes even the Great Pumpkin are real. Just ask any little kid & they have a true knowledge of them, it comes from the heart not some gilded temple. Sorry, almost forgot Snow White(if we can still use her last name) & the 7 little guys & my apology to any I may have missed. :oops:
samhill
 
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Hand Fed Coal Stove: hitzer 75 in garage
Stove/Furnace Make: keystoker/hitzer
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:20 pm

samhill wrote:No, no, Santa the Easter Bunny & yes even the Great Pumpkin are real. Just ask any little kid & they have a true knowledge of them, it comes from the heart not some gilded temple. Sorry, almost forgot Snow White(if we can still use her last name) & the 7 little guys & my apology to any I may have missed. :oops:



Oh thanks. Ya had me nervous.. LOL
Flyer5
 
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Re: If you're American...

PostBy: franco b On: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:29 pm

SteveZee wrote:Lastly I've got some reading for you. It's by Richard Dawkins.

Aside from some commentary from time to time the only thing written by Richard Dawkins that I have read is "The Blind Watchmaker" which I enjoyed very much as far as it goes. Other explicators of evolutionary theory such as Stephen Jay Gould also have a lot to contribute to understanding. The widespread belief that somehow this negates religion is just wrong. The Catholic Church and most others accept the evolutionary development of man and animals as a fact.

Evolutionary theory applies to everything since it explains why and how things change over time; our economy, our bodies, our thoughts, our technology, our universe. It is the ultimate in pragmatism.

Concepts of God start to get in trouble when we attempt to define the nature of God. Some beliefs such as Taoism and our Native Americans just acknowledge a presence that can't be defined. In essence the sum total of natural law, most of which is beyond our understanding or even awareness because as human beings we are too subject to our own instincts.

Buddhism and the more mystical branches of all the major religions seek to overcome that human flaw and gain enlightenment and the ability to understand the ultimate reality which is God.

Because that path is so arduous and few will succeed the Religions give us simple rules for the conduct of life which if followed will result in a contented and fulfilled life.
franco b
 
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