Is the Father revealed by Jesus the God of the Old Testament

"If there is evil in a city, has Yahweh not done it?” (Amos 3:6)
For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit (Luke 6:43)

“I form light and create darkness, make peace and create evil, I Yahweh do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7)
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5)

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul (1 Samuel 18:10)
Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of (Luke 9:54-55) For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit (Luke 6:43)

But Elijah answered the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. (2 Kings 1:9-10)
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. (Luke 9:54-55)

I the Lord your God am a jealous God (Exodus 20:5) for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God (Exodus 34:14)
God is love. (John 4:16) Love knows neither envy nor jealousy (1 Corinthians 13:4) Weymouth New Testament

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, (Isaiah 42:8) I am Jehovah, I change not. (Mal. 3:6 ASV)
And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (John 17:5)

Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. (Exodus 33:11)
So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared. (Genesis 32:30)
And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people. (Leviticus 26:12)
no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Matthew 11:27)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

One of my main hobbies for a number of years now has been the historical study of the very earliest history (histories) of Christianity. Almost unarguably the earliest group to write and publish a New Testament (and also to refer to the Hebrew scriptures as an Old Testament) was a group called the Marcionites. They possessed the earliest letters of Paul (back when there were only 10 of them, before the Proto-Orthodox (pre Catholics) wrote a few more that were clearly anti-Marcionite. The Marcionites did not know him as Paul, but only as "The Apostle". The Marcionites had only one Apostle, the one the group that was eventually destined to become the Catholics named Paul (which is a Latin name that is not at all a name, but is rather a Latin "cognomen", or title, and which means "the small one"). The Marcionites original 10 letters of "The Apostle" were all about 30% shorter on average than the current letters of Paul, as in order to usurp them the Proto-Orthodix had to add a bunch of anti-Marcionite and Old Testament reference (linking) stuff to each of them (along with penning a few more for good measure), and then they later accused the Marcionites of eliminating some of "Paul's" letters and of radically truncating the rest.

The Marcionite New Testament also had only one Gospel, called the Gospel of the Lord. It may have existed in a short version (somewhat akin to Mark) and a longer version (akin to a proto-Luke, with no birth narrative), but suffice it to say that all of the Marcionite works were ultimately burned and destroyed. We know only of remnants of them from the writings of the Proto-Orhodox, several of whom wrote many multi-book volumes specifically against the "heretic" Marcionites (pretty much after they were gone), some of which survive to this day. Justin (the Martyr) wrote in about 150 AD that in his day the Marcionites unfortunately still rivaled his own (Proto-Orthodox) church in both numbers and scope of territory. The earliest Christian church ever archaeologically dug up turned out to be a Marcionite church. We know this because the Marcionites called Jesus "Chrestos" (which means "the good one") instead of Christos (which means "the Messiah"), and the name carved above the entrance way of the uncovered church is Chrestos.

The Marcionite gospel had Jesus "come down" to earth fully as an adult, just as for our current Gospels of Mark and John. His mission was to reveal a new "Father" God who was hitherto totally unknown, and who was above the God of the Hebrews, and who's mission was to adopt and thereby redeem (save) us from the Hebrew God's harsh and legalistic (and often downright cruel) justice. The Marcionite "Father" God as opposed to this was purely a God of love.

One of the Marcionite published volumes that was destroyed along with all of the rest (and the Marcionites themselves, with many of them being willful Martyrs, as testified by even the proto-Orthodox) was titled "Antithesis", and we know only that it contrasted the attributes of Jesus and his newly revealed Father God to the harsh "Creator God" of the Hebrews. No one knows what it said, but perhaps it contained many similar comparisons as I have made above (only using exclusively the Marcionite Gospel and "Apostle"letters as references).

There were many other early Christian movements back then that were all radically different from what we consider Christianity today. The Ebionites and the multiple groups collectively called today the Gnostics being among the largest of these groups, most all of who's writings were eradicated, along with their followers.

lsayre wrote:
There were many other early Christian movements back then that were all radically different from what we consider Christianity today. The Ebionites and the multiple groups collectively called today the Gnostics being among the largest of these groups, most all of who's writings were eradicated, along with their followers.

It's difficult to consolidate power when you have alternative voices.

Yes, and as they say: The winner gets to write history.

lsayre wrote:Yes, and as they say: The winner gets to write history.

Never a truer statement.

The Catholics created a most likely fictional figure called Marcion, on whom they heaped the blame for the existence of the heretic Marcionites. They made this Marcion very late (140's AD) so they could claim that they came before him (and therefore before the conception of the Marcionite religion and texts). They then made him a sleaze bag who defiled a virgin of their church, and they made his dad out to be an Orthodox Bishop who had to excommunicate his own son. Then they claimed he tried to buy a Bishopric, or perhaps buy his way (he being a rich ship builder) into the very Papacy itself (so of course they had to toss him out of Rome itself, this being in about 144 AD). Hard to figure that an upstart Marcionite church founded by a guy who was first tossed out by his own father, and then tossed out by the Orthodox church itself could rival the Orthodox church in both numbers and scope by 150 AD, if it only got its start post 144 AD, but so be it. History has been written.

It may simply however be that the name Marcion (most likely a Latinization of a name perhaps pronounced more akin to Markion) is the diminutive form of the name Mark, much as Marcellina in Latin means "little Marcy" or "young Marcy". It is interesting that the Latin cognomen assigned as a name (I.E. Paul) means "the small one", or perhaps "the young one" or the "little one", just as Marcion may mean young Mark (or little Mark, or Mark the small one).

This was not the only fictional character the Catholics created out of thin air in order to necessarily explain away and eradicate a religious "heresy". They also fabricated a guy named Ebion as the founder of the Ebionites. Ebionite means "poor one" and Ebionites would mean "the poor ones". Doubtful that a parent would name his child the poor one, just as it is doubtful that a Hebrew God would name an Apostle by the Latin (as in Roman) name (err, cognomen) Paul.

If Marcion means little (or small, or young) Mark, then the Marcionites would be the followers of Mark.

I must give full credit to a guy named Stephan Huller as being the one who has done much of the recent research into this avenue of thought with regard to Marcion and the Marcionites.

That's pretty interesting Larry and not surprising. Did they not also re-write Mary Magdelaine's place from aposle to prostitute? I think some of the infamous Dead Sea scrolls purportedly contained some of, or referance to an early biblical chapter later deleted that had been her's?

I also agree with it being interesting, too bad that this is the type of thing that affects so many yet little will ever be known about.

That problem will never be solved. As fast as there is a vacuum another religion rushes in to fill it. All the good ones promise things unattainable on earth. Eternal life. It is amusing, I guess, how many times my morals have been questioned when it is discovered I don't believe. Like I don't have a track record in a small community in Maine. Almost all my best friends are what I would call ultra religious, and they say that my actions show that god has a plan for me and he has just not revealed himself or it yet. Amazing! Many people are so blinded by god they don't see the machine running the show. Social engineering and a for profit business.

Kevin

SteveZee wrote:That's pretty interesting Larry and not surprising. Did they not also re-write Mary Magdelaine's place from aposle to prostitute? I think some of the infamous Dead Sea scrolls purportedly contained some of, or referance to an early biblical chapter later deleted that had been her's?

There is much about Mary Magdaline in the Gnostic literature. She seems to be a "fallen Spohia" character to them (Sophia meaning wisdom in Greek, with much in the Old Testament and also much old testament era apocrapha and pseudoepigripha and Gnostic literature about the female figure known as "Wisdom"). I need to do more research in that direction. In the New Testament Jesus clearly has become the formerly female character called Wisdom (Sophia). Proverbs chapter 8 is one of but many references to a female called Wisdom who looks a lot like Christ.

KLook wrote:That problem will never be solved. As fast as there is a vacuum another religion rushes in to fill it. All the good ones promise things unattainable on earth. Eternal life. It is amusing, I guess, how many times my morals have been questioned when it is discovered I don't believe. Like I don't have a track record in a small community in Maine. Almost all my best friends are what I would call ultra religious, and they say that my actions show that god has a plan for me and he has just not revealed himself or it yet. Amazing! Many people are so blinded by god they don't see the machine running the show. Social engineering and a for profit business.

Kevin

Even better. It's Tax Free! I do understand the social aspects of "congregations" and the need to fit or feel part of the group or maybe even the "blueprint" that some need to follow. I just don't think that everyone needs to believe in God or religion in order to lead a moral life.

SteveZee wrote:I just don't think that everyone needs to believe in God or religion in order to lead a moral life.

Of course you don't since the seeds of morality and many other things have already been implanted in you genetically. That was the essence of Emerson's teaching. That we are born with spiritual knowledge but the pressures of fashion and trends in belief tend to corrupt it. Holy men like Gandhi are able to return to that state of spirituality. Jesus also had something to say on the subject.

Everyone admires the innocence and purity of little children yet where does it go and why?

We love and treasure our canine friends but bear in mind it is the heritage of the wolf that we love so much and that fits in so well with our own.

Regardless of belief there still remains an all pervading presence.

franco b wrote:

SteveZee wrote:I just don't think that everyone needs to believe in God or religion in order to lead a moral life.

Of course you don't since the seeds of morality and many other things have already been implanted in you genetically. That was the essence of Emerson's teaching. That we are born with spiritual knowledge but the pressures of fashion and trends in belief tend to corrupt it. Holy men like Gandhi are able to return to that state of spirituality. Jesus also had something to say on the subject.

Everyone admires the innocence and purity of little children yet where does it go and why?

We love and treasure our canine friends but bear in mind it is the heritage of the wolf that we love so much and that fits in so well with our own.

Regardless of belief there still remains an all pervading presence.

Interesting take on the dogs Richard and quite possibly that social/pack mentality is what we humans relate to. As much as we like think of ourselves as individuals, we are very much social animals within that sphere. I'd imagine that it is genetic and of course a good bit nurture too. Darwin and Lamarck.

SteveZee wrote:Interesting take on the dogs Richard and quite possibly that social/pack mentality is what we humans relate to. As much as we like think of ourselves as individuals, we are very much social animals within that sphere. I'd imagine that it is genetic and of course a good bit nurture too. Darwin and Lamarck.

Take away the qualifiers in those sentences and you are right on.

Nature will always win out over nurture if nurture conflicts with nature. It is the appalling ignorance of human nature that leads to so many well meaning actions that lead to tragedy.

Contrary to centuries of myth and legend wolves are pretty good people, as it took several scientific studies to find out what our Native Americans knew all along from living close to nature but lacked the ability to publish.

So many things are not what they seem to be because we just don't know or refuse to recognize first causes. We decry youth gangs which are perfectly normal healthy things for people to do and have always done because it is in their nature. When we form a gang to lie and cheat and steal along with murder but call it a political party then it's OK. It's the same impulse in either case.

The Libertarian creed probably comes closest to the nurture of natural man. It needs more scientific backing from biology. I think jpete's responses annoy so many because terseness and objectivity can be jarring to many who have beliefs he regards as fantasy.

I think jpete's responses annoy so many because terseness and objectivity can be jarring to many who have beliefs he regards as fantasy.

HHAHAHAHAH!
Yeah, that is the best explanation of jpete I have heard. Even those of us that agree with him can sense the "terseness".

Kevin